Adding Increased Drag to a Reel

Started by foakes, June 08, 2020, 03:29:46 PM

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Bryan Young

:D I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. :D

AJ

Burt Munro Land Speed record holder: "Offerings to the God of Speed"

Butch

Ok... What is the "Straight Six" of the reel world?... Most all reels have an "Achilles Heel" somewhere.. Even the Penn US 113... You guys don't do any little upgrades on your 6s?
Butch

thorhammer

Prolly the 6/0 with stock aluminum Penn frame and a steel main. Try and break it and let us know how it comes out.

MarkT

Quote from: steelfish on June 25, 2020, 06:43:01 PM
where is the fun if you keep everything stock and on its limits?


Just start with a reel from this millennium!  Just Fugetabout  those Squidder/Jigmaster/Senators and it'll all be good!
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

Cor

Shimano 20/40 or Diawa SL50SH. ;D ;D

Just another question:- does a fish  exert more pressure on the reel when you can hold it with a locked drag OR if you tighten your drag just to the point where it can take some line?

I think the latter!
Cornelis

jurelometer

Quote from: Cor on April 26, 2021, 07:08:57 AM
Shimano 20/40 or Diawa SL50SH. ;D ;D

Just another question:- does a fish  exert more pressure on the reel when you can hold it with a locked drag OR if you tighten your drag just to the point where it can take some line?

I think the latter!

The most  pressure will be exerted when none can be released, so alocked drag wins. Potential wear or damage  on specific components is a different story.

Cor

#22
The scientific answer!

Mainly from Yellowtail fishing I know that it is usually possible to hold a 20 lb fish with 60 lb  line, strong rod  and locked drag and when fishing from shore.
The fish is not able to swim other then sideways nor get its head around facing away from the angler and perhaps its tail cavitates like a boat propeller.

The  moment the drag gives only slightly you can no longer hold it and if there is structure nearby you have probably lost the fight.
Cornelis

Squidder Bidder

Quote from: Cor on June 09, 2020, 07:04:51 AM
Because of our need to cast a lure, which most of the stronger reels don't do well, we tend to use "normal" reels, load them with 50lb mono or even 80lb (braid) and go after Yellowfin tuna.   I've seldom seen a reel just blow up. Usually the AR goes, causing the reel to spin out of control with a major backlash, broken line and painful fingers and hands from handle slap.

Just from my tinkering with old Penns, it looks like the stock anti-reverse dogs are a red brass alloy with a higher copper content than the other yellower brass alloys used in the other parts of the reels' internals, including the bridge sleeve. Would I be correct in assuming that the red brass is a weaker alloy, used on purpose so that a small, easily replaceable part would fail first under high stress? In such a case a stainless steel AR dog should be the final upgrade top the internals of a reel.

However, I did open a Long Beach 60 from fleabay with one of the teeth sheared off of the sleeve in pieces and distributed inside the side plate. The dog seemed not to have been undamaged so I may be wrong here regarding the planned failure point of the AR dog.


foakes

Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 09, 2020, 07:04:51 AM
Because of our need to cast a lure, which most of the stronger reels don't do well, we tend to use "normal" reels, load them with 50lb mono or even 80lb (braid) and go after Yellowfin tuna.   I've seldom seen a reel just blow up. Usually the AR goes, causing the reel to spin out of control with a major backlash, broken line and painful fingers and hands from handle slap.

Just from my tinkering with old Penns, it looks like the stock anti-reverse dogs are a red brass alloy with a higher copper content than the other yellower brass alloys used in the other parts of the reels' internals, including the bridge sleeve. Would I be correct in assuming that the red brass is a weaker alloy, used on purpose so that a small, easily replaceable part would fail first under high stress? In such a case a stainless steel AR dog should be the final upgrade top the internals of a reel.

However, I did open a Long Beach 60 from fleabay with one of the teeth sheared off of the sleeve in pieces and distributed inside the side plate. The dog seemed not to have been undamaged so I may be wrong here regarding the planned failure point of the AR dog.

90% of the time, in my experience with the Penns that come across the bench — and the angler will never admit that he did this.

The sleeve teeth that are either distorted or broken, or the dog is ruined — happens when the reel is taken into or out of gear — then back into gear — when fighting a fish.

Sort of like shifting gears in a vehicle without using the clutch.  It is a rugged procedure, at best.

Better to carefully pull back slowly on the rod — then just let it go forward a bit to relieve the pressure — and put it in gear.

Another problem is when dropping a heavy weight down in free spool — then throwing the reel in gear while the weight and bait is still going downwards.

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

jurelometer

Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM


Just from my tinkering with old Penns, it looks like the stock anti-reverse dogs are a red brass alloy with a higher copper content than the other yellower brass alloys used in the other parts of the reels' internals, including the bridge sleeve. Would I be correct in assuming that the red brass is a weaker alloy, used on purpose so that a small, easily replaceable part would fail first under high stress? In such a case a stainless steel AR dog should be the final upgrade top the internals of a reel.

However, I did open a Long Beach 60 from fleabay with one of the teeth sheared off of the sleeve in pieces and distributed inside the side plate. The dog seemed not to have been undamaged so I may be wrong here regarding the planned failure point of the AR dog.



Designing the dog to fail in order to save the a few reel parts at the expense of broken knuckles would seem like a curious tradeoff.   The dog vs pawl  (on the gear sleeve) material looks very similar to me in terms of hardness on the the old Penns.

In terms of common point of failure under load for the classic Penns:  If the reel is not worn, the gear sleeve top will round off where it connects to the handle arm when the drag is cranked up and the reel is wound against load.  An aftermarket stainless gear sleeve is a good upgrade, some folks add stainless dogs, but how useful this is depends on the reel.

Once the reel wears, it depends on the use.   If dropping in and out of gear under load is common, the eccentric /yoke assembly will get sloppy, eventually having troubling getting out of freespool. 

The other cause of  failure is the post on the bridge supporting the gear sleeve flexing.   This places the main gear and pawl out of alignment with pinion and dog respectively.  Failure, or at least stress wear  occurs more when winding under load than taking drag because  the handle arm provides leverage to pull the gear sleeve and post out of alignment  (human shoulder to hand assemblies  were not evolved to provide rotational load), either causing a failure at that moment, or decreasing the rigidity of the post - leading to a failure later under drag.   Custom longer  handle arms provide greater leverage, and aftermarket drag kits provide the potential for more drag to wind against, so while these upgrades have  benefits,  they also give the angler the ability to put more alignment  stress on the post. 

There is no economical fix for post flex, and alignment is much more important than materials.  Folks shred stainless gears, dogs slip under the pawl, etc.

We did a long thread somewhere that I think demonstrated how you can determine if a gear shredded during winding or against the drag.

IMHO, the customization that would provide the most benefit is the one that does not exist:  a side plate that houses a bearing to support the unsupported end of the handle/ gear shaft.   This would at a minimum  require a resigned gear sleeve, or even better, a solid axle, which would also mean a redesigned bridge plate.   There are aftermarket side plates, bridges and gear sleeves, so this is not impossible, but there does not appear to be much of a market  for $200 or so of customizations for an old reel to make it nearly as good as a modern $200 reel.   

As Fred noted, it is extremely stressful to throw a star drag reel into of gear against load.  Unfortunately, it is necessary for many types of fishing.  It is inconvenient to impossible to use your thumb to  stop a heavy weight that you are dropping as fast as possible to reach depth in a current.  Similar problem with live baiting in freespool  and a tuna takes off with your bait.  While we all love our star drags, this is a fundamental weakness of the design. But not always an issue, depending on the type of fishing that you do.


My $0.02,

-J

Ron Jones

Quote from: jurelometer on November 17, 2021, 11:07:03 PM
Quote from: Squidder Bidder on November 17, 2021, 07:48:58 PM
  While we all love our star drags, this is a fundamental weakness of the design. But not always an issue, depending on the type of fishing that you do.
My $0.02,

-J
I don't understand how this is an issue with star drags? Unless you move the lever of a lever drag out of freespool very deliberately (not to common when a tuna starts to run) then you can shock the AR parts with the same load. If you have the Star Drag at 50% breaking strength of the line when you are in freespool then I can see it being an issue, I can also see the fish swimming away after the hook pulls out of its mouth.

If you start with the drag of a star drag backed off to where the fish will still be able to easily run when you put the reel in gear then I don't see the shock being much different than a lever drag, and you won't eat a pinion bearing when you do pour on the coal.

The Man
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

jurelometer

#27
Quote from: Ron Jones on November 18, 2021, 12:01:52 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on November 17, 2021, 11:07:03 PM
 While we all love our star drags, this is a fundamental weakness of the design. But not always an issue, depending on the type of fishing that you do.
My $0.02,

-J
I don't understand how this is an issue with star drags? Unless you move the lever of a lever drag out of freespool very deliberately (not to common when a tuna starts to run) then you can shock the AR parts with the same load. If you have the Star Drag at 50% breaking strength of the line when you are in freespool then I can see it being an issue, I can also see the fish swimming away after the hook pulls out of its mouth.

If you start with the drag of a star drag backed off to where the fish will still be able to easily run when you put the reel in gear then I don't see the shock being much different than a lever drag, and you won't eat a pinion bearing when you do pour on the coal.

The Man

 A star drag is always on or off, which means quite an impact when you flip the eccentric, even if the initiall drag setting is low. A star drag setup is sort of like a not-very-bright car drive train design where you have to engage  the clutch before you shift from neutral to first gear, so there are all these issues to consider, like how to to get some sort of spline arrangement on the pinion  (that is not moving and locked by the drag)  to engage with a spinning spool.  

Star drags also have a multiplier effect on anything on the main gear (AKA handle) shaft, where the gear ratio essentially causes leverage against the drag and anti-reverse.  A 5:1 gear ratio means that compared to a proper lever lever drag design, you need five times as much clamping force for the same amount of drag five times as much pressure on your gears and anti reverse, etc.  

The properly designed lever drag will effectively apply the drag incrementally, no matter how fast you swing the lever.  And you don't have any issues with  trying to get the drive train to somehow engage with a spinning spool (except for a few unfortunate lever drag designs).

A properly designed lever drag that has the anti-reverse built in at the drag plate (and not something foolish less optimal like a clutch bearing on the handle shaft)  places zero load on the drive train when engaging the drag or when the drag is fully engaged. The entire drive train is always in gear, and you don't have to deal with the multiplier effect of the gears, as all the stopping is being done ahead of the gear ratio.

While we tend to think of lever drags as more complex and not as useful for casting, from a basic design perspective they can be a much simpler and more trouble free design and equally easy to cast.  It is just that lever drag designs have evolved from a trolling reel heritage, and we foolish consumers keep pushing for new and improved star drags, instead of better casting, simpler lever drags.

Good advice about backing off on a star drag a bit when practical.  It will definitely help.  


The Dude  :)

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."



oc1

#28
The modern roller clutch bearing that everybody loves to hate has a second function.  It provides outboard support for the gear sleeve taking much of the load off the gear post attachment to the bridge.  This reduces the power handle's ability to pull the gear out of alignment.  The manufacturers seem to want to use this to their advantage by making the attachment between post and bridge less robust when a roller bearing is used.  You can't trust a roller clutch bearing to not fail so reels with a roller bearing, and a dog, and a strong attachment of post to bridge may be the best approach.  

jurelometer

Quote from: oc1 on November 18, 2021, 04:20:00 AM
The modern roller clutch bearing that everybody loves to hate has a second function.  It provides outboard support for the gear sleeve taking half of the load off the gear post attachment to the bridge.  This reduces the power handle's ability to pull the gear out of alignment.  The manufacturers seem to want to use this to their advantage by making the attachment between post and bridge less robust when a roller bearing is used.  You can't trust a roller clutch bearing to not fail so reels with both roller bearing and dog may be the best alternative.  

Agree but sort of disagree...

Roller clutch "bearings" are not really bearings at all and are not  designed to handle radial load.  Also, with the type of clutches used in most fishing reel main gear (handle) shafts, the outer (not really a) "race" needs to be able to freely move in order for all the rollers to lock up, so the last thing you want is to be pushing the shaft against one side of the clutch "bearing".  A proper implementation of a roller clutch has a separate real bearing to manage the radial load.  While you can sort of get away with using the clutch  to act as a rudimentary low RPM bearing to prevent a large amount a gear misalignment in something like a reel, you are doing so at the expense of the clutch capacity and longevity.

IMHO, fishing reels are not the first place to look for examples of basic mechanical design best practices, and before the days of braid, this particular hack might have been almost OK.

As Steve pointed out, in this case we have a long shaft that acts as a spindle+axle for the larger of a pair of drive gears.  One side of the shaft is supported, but the other side floats and is eventually attached to a crank arm.  The classic star drag reel designs beef up the support by using a post inside a hollow shaft to provide some support for shaft alignement,  but this is not nearly as strong or as durable as simply following the standard engineering practice of using radial load bearing bearings on both the ends of the shaft.  This can be a simple/reliable/inexpensive solid bearing (AKA bushing) and the fit does not have to be very accurate.  We just don't want to pull the gears away from each other, especially with helical gears that will crawl away from each other until only a small part of one tooth is engaged.

Meanwhile there are plenty of reels that stick an extra ball bearing or two in the handle knob.  Sigh...

-J