Penn 112h with a shredded SS main gear

Started by Lane Grant, July 17, 2020, 02:14:14 AM

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philaroman

my theory: some grains of sand (or, whatever abrasive debris) suspended in the grease
(not IN the teeth, but NEAR)...  1st big fish "warms things up";
2nd BIGGER fish heats the innards further, allowing the grease to travel & carry sand into the teeth...
just a few grains along one side/edge of the main could do that, IMO

oldmanjoe

       I see two things  .    A soft gear and possible loose bridge screws.
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

Rancanfish

Since we have pretty much helped out Lane, can I veer over to a gear strength question?

I have a half dozen or so NOS Penn black steel gears,  would they be stronger than the SS under load?  I put them in all my Jigmaster gear apps, like my PG 255 etc.

That is assuming the bridge screws and goodies are all snugged up properly.

And Lane, if you have a problem finding one I'll let one go at my cost.
I woke today and suddenly nothing happened.

Lane Grant

Thanks for all the responses and help. I am glad this happened and have definitely learned a lot. I have decided to purchase the heat treated gear set from pro challenger in 5:1 this time. I know the stock ones in 4:1 will be cheaper and more forgiving but Im going to apply the scientific method to this problem. This time I will try (keyword-try) and limit the drag to below 22 lbs. I will also ensure any of the bridge screws have not backed out after a fight. I am going to throughly clean the reel and make sure there is no debris (sand or grit) prior to the next trip. I absolutely love this stuff. Its fun to rehab an old reel but much funner to test the limits of my work. All I need now is to fix the reel and convince a similar size BFT to help me out. Thanks again everyone, with any luck I will post the results if I happened to get lucky enough to find a BFT of similar size. If not maybe I'll let one of them mud marlins in the bay be my assistant, who knows?

Alto Mare

I like the way you think👍👍

Can't wait for your results.

Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Dominick

Quote from: Alto Mare on July 17, 2020, 02:48:07 PM
I like the way you think👍👍

Can't wait for your results.

Sal
Ditto.  Another excuse to go fishing again.  Dominick
Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

Bryan Young

:D I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. :D

SoCalAngler

With 30 lb test you should set your drags around 8-10 lbs. Even at around 15 lbs and over you are going to bust off fish I bet. At the end of the fight you can add more drag than 10 lbs when the fish is strait up and down doing its death spiral. 

jurelometer

#23
Good advice from the reel repair experts here.   I always listen to experience.

My contribution is more from the science side of the house (Caveat:  I am a mechanical engineering fanboy, not trained in this stuff).

In a nutshell, the photo shows damage at an angle along the length of the edge of the teeth on the  the main gear.  This means that the main gear was forced away from the pinion.  The spool shaft supports the pinion on both sides. so if the pinion was angled, the spool shaft would have to been bent, which should have been quite noticeable.

This means that the main gear had to have been angled away.  The main gear  "shaft" is the gear sleeve, which is spins on a post that is press fit into a bridge plate.  The post is only supported on one side.  It can be pushed off-angle angled without significant force.  

1.  Winding force on the handle arm can be one culprit as the handle works like a lever attached to the unsupported end of the gear post (a lever on a lever).  It doesn't take much force to angle a 500/112h main gear post by pulling/pushing the handle knob toward or away from the sideplate.   You will probably be able to see this if you clamp the reel seat in a vice and pull the knob away from the sideplate.  A long handle arm increases the leverage, making this more likely.  

If the damage is limited to a couple teeth, this means that the damage occurred when the main gear was not turning- which means if winding is causing the problem, it is because it is weakening the rigidity of the main gear post, which later causes a failure under drag (see 6)

2.  The gear sleeve post may be loose, or the bridge plate may not be screwed fully tight to the sideplate.   or there may be too much slop between the post and gear sleeve.

3.  You could be using an undergear washer made out of a softer material (like a drag washer) that allows the gear to be angled farther once the gear becomes a bit misaligned.

4.  (most likely IMHO) The gear teeth are too small for the load that you are placing on this particular design Aftermarket high gear ratio sets requires that the pitch diameter (gear diameter at roughly the middle of the tooth) ratio from the main to the pinion increase without changing the center distance.  In order to get a greater ratio for the same center distance, the solution is usually to make the teeth shallower (this is why there are more teeth), which allows for the main gear pitch diameter to increase and the pinion pitch diameter to decrease.  Shallower teeth mean that it takes less misalignment (angled) to cause the load to concentrate on a smaller area on the thinner outside edge of the gear tooth.

5.  Helical cut gears are strong and quiet when they are aligned, but they become vulnerable when the shafts are forced out of alignment.  The tooth path is curved, which causes the load to be further concentrated toward one edge of the tooth in this situation.  I think the wear pattern in the photo illustrates this. If you play with a loose set of gears you can visualize what happens. It is a bit complicated to explain here, but it boils down to the tooth being angled away from the load instead of being at a 90 degree angle.   Helical gears are the only option on these type of reels (for mostly good reasons), so nothing can be done here.

6. (most likely IMHO ) - any slight misalignment combined with excessive load will force the gears farther apart at an angle, concentrating the load on the tip of the gear tooth (what Sal said).

22 lbs of drag off the reel equates to several hundred pounds of force onto the main gear tooth.  This can actually be calculated.  I had to guess on the main gear/filled spool diameters ( 0.9/2.5  in), but with these estimates, the force on the tooth would be 305.56 lbs!

You can give it a try yourself with the correct measurements:https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.msg145318#msg145318

Use formula 3, but substitute the ratchet radius with the pitch circle radius of the main gear (distance from center of hole  to the middle of a tooth)

This is why there is so much force:

A 112h is a fairly tall reel and a 5:1 gear ratio is a  fairly large gear ratio.  The tall spool acts as a lever, which means it takes more torque to produce the same amount of drag.  Gears can be thought of as a set of levers arranged in a circle, so the torque multiplies again by the gear ratio with star drag reels.   With 22 lbs of drag you are actually putting multiples of multiples more force on the gear tooth.

7.  According to the Pro Challenger web site- the 112h 5:1 gear seat uses 304 stainless (cannot be hardened) for the main gear, and 420 (hardened) for the pinion.   This is consistent with the the pinion digging into the main gear as seen in the photo.   The wear marks make me believe that the misalignment is pretty significant, so I am not certain that a harder (and more brittle) material, would have made enough of a difference.

--------------------

There could also be some other less likely contributors (pinion hole oversized, etc.).

All of the above could contribute to the failure, but it is hard to tell which one(s) are the most significant without looking at the reel.   IMHO, asking for 22 lbs of drag with higher gear ratio, smaller gear teeth, and a long handle arm is a challenge for this reel, especially for extended runs, from an anchored/drifting boat (bluefin on a party boat).  Maybe you will find a loose gear post, and fixing that puts you back in business, but the physics are not working in your favor.

--------------

Switching back from 5:1 to 4:1 gears takes 20% of the load off the main gear teeth, and allows you to use a 20% shorter handle arm without losing cranking power (and/or be more attentive about how you are levering the gear post when winding).  The greater tooth depth and greater backlash (extra space between teeth) of the 4:1 buys you a bunch more in terms of accommodating misalignment under load as well.   I wouldn't be surprised to see the 4:1 main gear being able to handle 30-50% more drag than the 5:1.  Something else might break, of course.  

I would seriously consider switching back to 4:1,  in addition to finding the most rigid bridgeplate/post combo available  (plus mebbe backing off the drag a bit  :)  ).  


-J

Donnyboat

Yes I believe these last two replies are right on the money, if you roll your spool across a flat table you  should be able too see if the spool shafts are bent at all, and welcome to the forum from sunny Western Australia, cheers Don.
Don, or donnyboat

Lane Grant

UGGGHHH..... 4:1 It is. That was awesome thanks J.

Bryan Young

Check the bridge plate and the gear sleeve post to see if it's lose.
:D I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. :D

Lane Grant

#27
Bryan, the gear sleeve post and bridge seem fine. Just had a conversation with Alan Chui and he confirmed everything J said. All is good. He is sending me a new one like the good dude that he is. I'm still going to go down to 4:1 when I get the chance.    

Lane Grant

In other news is anyone down for tuna head?

oldmanjoe

  A point to ponder ,   Would a spiral wrapped rod have helped this reel  ? Would the drags work/ live longer with 4:1 verses 5;1
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare