Penn 112h with a shredded SS main gear

[RowdyW]

Now is the time to ask BP if he will trade the 5 to 1 for a 4 to 1.

[jurelometer]

 A point to ponder ,   Would a spiral wrapped rod have helped this reel  ? Would the drags work/ live longer with 4:1 verses 5;1

No on the spiral wrapped rod.  The load is on the reel after the rod does it's work.   You might be able to argue that spiral causes more or less force out of the rod tip at at a given rod angle (probably not that significant), but it is all the same at the reel.

All of the parts associated with the main gear shaft will take less load for the same amount of drag (gear sleeve, handle arm; dog/ratchet,etc).  It will take less clamping load on the drag washers for the same amount of drag, but from what I have read here, carbon fiber drag washers don't seem to wear out very quickly.

-J

[oldmanjoe]

   My thinking is the fish is helping the reel from torque roll .   That reel handle is now used to reel in the fish , not to act as a anti roll bar.  Less stress on the gear sleeve .

[Gfish]

Welcome to the Forum, Lane Grant. Your first post is a duzie! Particularly interesting to me because I did a 500/501 vs 505/506 comparison awhile back.
I thought that the HS reels were structurally stronger than than the regular Jigmasters with one possible exception: the 5:1 gears in the HS Jigmasters, had a wider diameter main gear with smaller teeth. I'd heard somewhere( probably here) that they might shred easier than the old 500/501 gears. I asked if anyone had ever heard of this happening---no answers, till now!
Still ya never know. The 4:1's mighta done the same thing under that kinda stress.

If you wanna see a side by side picture of the 2 different gears check out the thread in the section "Penn 99/Jigmaster/Surfmaster/etc." from the main page. There is quite a visiual diffrence in teeth size between the two. Someone like Jurelometer could probably make diffrence measurements and calculate strength diffrences under a given load for gears made outta the same material. Ha!. Great and interesting stuff J.!

Here's the picture; std. 500 series gears-left, HS series gears-right.

[Rocket Dog]

Good advice from the reel repair experts here.   I always listen to experience.

My contribution is more from the science side of the house (Caveat:  I am a mechanical engineering fanboy, not trained in this stuff).

In a nutshell, the photo shows damage at an angle along the length of the edge of the teeth on the  the main gear.  This means that the main gear was forced away from the pinion.  The spool shaft supports the pinion on both sides. so if the pinion was angled, the spool shaft would have to been bent, which should have been quite noticeable.

This means that the main gear had to have been angled away.  The main gear  "shaft" is the gear sleeve, which is spins on a post that is press fit into a bridge plate.  The post is only supported on one side.  It can be pushed off-angle angled without significant force.  

1.  Winding force on the handle arm can be one culprit as the handle works like a lever attached to the unsupported end of the gear post (a lever on a lever).  It doesn't take much force to angle a 500/112h main gear post by pulling/pushing the handle knob toward or away from the sideplate.   You will probably be able to see this if you clamp the reel seat in a vice and pull the knob away from the sideplate.  A long handle arm increases the leverage, making this more likely.  

If the damage is limited to a couple teeth, this means that the damage occurred when the main gear was not turning- which means if winding is causing the problem, it is because it is weakening the rigidity of the main gear post, which later causes a failure under drag (see 6)

2.  The gear sleeve post may be loose, or the bridge plate may not be screwed fully tight to the sideplate.   or there may be too much slop between the post and gear sleeve.

3.  You could be using an undergear washer made out of a softer material (like a drag washer) that allows the gear to be angled farther once the gear becomes a bit misaligned.

4.  (most likely IMHO) The gear teeth are too small for the load that you are placing on this particular design Aftermarket high gear ratio sets requires that the pitch diameter (gear diameter at roughly the middle of the tooth) ratio from the main to the pinion increase without changing the center distance.  In order to get a greater ratio for the same center distance, the solution is usually to make the teeth shallower (this is why there are more teeth), which allows for the main gear pitch diameter to increase and the pinion pitch diameter to decrease.  Shallower teeth mean that it takes less misalignment (angled) to cause the load to concentrate on a smaller area on the thinner outside edge of the gear tooth.

5.  Helical cut gears are strong and quiet when they are aligned, but they become vulnerable when the shafts are forced out of alignment.  The tooth path is curved, which causes the load to be further concentrated toward one edge of the tooth in this situation.  I think the wear pattern in the photo illustrates this. If you play with a loose set of gears you can visualize what happens. It is a bit complicated to explain here, but it boils down to the tooth being angled away from the load instead of being at a 90 degree angle.   Helical gears are the only option on these type of reels (for mostly good reasons), so nothing can be done here.

6. (most likely IMHO ) - any slight misalignment combined with excessive load will force the gears farther apart at an angle, concentrating the load on the tip of the gear tooth (what Sal said).

22 lbs of drag off the reel equates to several hundred pounds of force onto the main gear tooth.  This can actually be calculated.  I had to guess on the main gear/filled spool diameters ( 0.9/2.5  in), but with these estimates, the force on the tooth would be 305.56 lbs!

You can give it a try yourself with the correct measurements:https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.msg145318#msg145318

Use formula 3, but substitute the ratchet radius with the pitch circle radius of the main gear (distance from center of hole  to the middle of a tooth)

This is why there is so much force:

A 112h is a fairly tall reel and a 5:1 gear ratio is a  fairly large gear ratio.  The tall spool acts as a lever, which means it takes more torque to produce the same amount of drag.  Gears can be thought of as a set of levers arranged in a circle, so the torque multiplies again by the gear ratio with star drag reels.   With 22 lbs of drag you are actually putting multiples of multiples more force on the gear tooth.

7.  According to the Pro Challenger web site- the 112h 5:1 gear seat uses 304 stainless (cannot be hardened) for the main gear, and 420 (hardened) for the pinion.   This is consistent with the the pinion digging into the main gear as seen in the photo.   The wear marks make me believe that the misalignment is pretty significant, so I am not certain that a harder (and more brittle) material, would have made enough of a difference.

--------------------

There could also be some other less likely contributors (pinion hole oversized, etc.).

All of the above could contribute to the failure, but it is hard to tell which one(s) are the most significant without looking at the reel.   IMHO, asking for 22 lbs of drag with higher gear ratio, smaller gear teeth, and a long handle arm is a challenge for this reel, especially for extended runs, from an anchored/drifting boat (bluefin on a party boat).  Maybe you will find a loose gear post, and fixing that puts you back in business, but the physics are not working in your favor.

--------------

Switching back from 5:1 to 4:1 gears takes 20% of the load off the main gear teeth, and allows you to use a 20% shorter handle arm without losing cranking power (and/or be more attentive about how you are levering the gear post when winding).  The greater tooth depth and greater backlash (extra space between teeth) of the 4:1 buys you a bunch more in terms of accommodating misalignment under load as well.   I wouldn't be surprised to see the 4:1 main gear being able to handle 30-50% more drag than the 5:1.  Something else might break, of course.  

I would seriously consider switching back to 4:1,  in addition to finding the most rigid bridgeplate/post combo available  (plus mebbe backing off the drag a bit    ).  


-J

Now that is a post.... and why I like coming here!

[Alto Mare]

I couldn't agree with you more!
I do know there are a couple of geniuses on our site, but for most of us, we are very lucky having Dave with us.

The only problem he has, he never gives himself enough credit.

I might not answer all his postings, but you can rest assured I read everything he puts out.
I gave learned a lot from Dave.
The man is a true genius!

Sal

[MarkT]

Lane, were you pulling on the handle when fighting the fish? Pulling on the handle could've been flexing the gear sleeve and creating/contributing to the misalignment of the gears.

[RowdyW]

It seems to me that if you use the reel as a winch you need a bigger reel that is up to the task. Smaller reels can do the job also but it requires a different technique. It seems a lot of folks haven't learned the "pump & reel" type of fishing. Brute force is not always the way to go especially when a bigger fish then you were expecting hits your line. If you just like to fish with small reels for big fish that's ok but use the right technique. Then there will be less wear & tear on you & your equipment.

[Alto Mare]

I agree Rudy.
This isn't the first gear I've seen  stripped.
There are different techniques and I'm not telling anyone how to do their fishing.
Star drag reels are not lever drag, those you can actually fine tune to the fish by increasing or decreasing drag.
I usually set the star when the drag just slip a little and take it from there, this minimizes the chance of ripping the hook.
Letting the rod absorb some of the pull also helps and of course as you've mentioned pumping the rod.

With that said, you might get a fish that it just too much for that particular reel and that's what happened here.

I probably would have damaged my reel as well to try to land that fish.
I do not mind if my gear blows up on a nice fish.

Sal

[Lane Grant]

I was pulling on the handle, and cranking more aggressive than I normally do. Like I said before it was good lesson learned. I have newer reels to include toriums and fathoms that I was not as aggressive with nor ever have been. I was just having fun and decided to put the term "tanked" to the test. As everyone can see it did not work out but to me its still a win. Now I know the breaking point and now I know what it feels like to push a reel too far. If I took it easy and saved those gears I would not have gained the knowledge that everyone has taken the time to post on this thread. I am also happy to have met all of you and I am throughly impressed with the talented individuals that have posted their thoughts the last couple of days. Once again, thank you all.

[oc1]

So, if the gears are stripped before you are spooled then there is operator error?  

In that situation, I don't think it is possible to make the handle go around without putting pressure on the gear shaft.  After all, the reel is not clamped in a vice.  You are trying to stabilize it with your left hand while cranking with your right hand.  Perhaps the harness lugs were put there for many reasons?

I also thought that the threaded portion of the gear sleeve was the weakest link.

It is crushing to learn that a normal human being is stronger than a Penn Senator.  You are a normal human being, right Lane?  Or, perhaps, the lesson is that you shouldn't screw around with the Penn engineering by making modifications.  Or, perhaps, modifications can be counterproductive if they disregard to overall design.  Or, perhaps, the first modification should be to fortify the bridge and peened gear shaft before monkeying around with the gears.

Pushing something until it breaks is so instructive.
-steve

[Rancanfish]

Lane,  I have to say you are a great sport.  It is tough to admit to 'wrong doing' and self induced problems.  I think you must have had a great set of folks to learn how to eat some crow and happily go about repairing the damage. 

And welcome to the site.

[MarkT]

Steve, a 112h is basically a big Jigmaster rather than a 'real' Senator. Jigmaster gears/drags with a bigger spool.

[Vintage Offshore Tackle]

Steve, a 112h is basically a big Jigmaster rather than a 'real' Senator. Jigmaster gears/drags with a bigger spool.

That's true Mark, but a stock HT-100 112H should have no problem fishing 30 lb. line and a lot more.  It has a more drag surface than the standard black 4/0 Senator.  It can handle anything that a 400 series Newell can.

[Swami805]

The kicker is that happened with 30lb mono, the line should have broken long before the gear stripped. Something is wrong that allowed that to happen, it wasn't the fault of the gear. By just replacing the gear the same thing is likely to occur again unless the underlying problem is addressed right?