break my 1st blank performing an static test before building it

[steelfish]

...  I broke one jig rod that was 30-50 rated and was supprised test it in the yard.  I remember the sound and feeling that followed.

Haha, I can relate that!! I can just imagine your face, maybe it was similar to my face when that happened to me haha.

......  Probably a defect in the blank that showed up.   But you are much better off with your bend test first ...
      I always test my blanks and sometimes adjust the guides before finishing.     Best of luck. 💫

thanks Gary, nice you know that you also test your blanks too; when we look the "small" halibutts you normally get, its better to know you can trust on your weapons before taking them to the battle.

........   Building my own rod is more satisfying and that's what we do.  ...
 

Yep, amigo, thats what we do and this part of unexpected situations are just experiences that make us do a better work.

...This is an interesting place and I,m learning as we go.    Alex you are a very talented man,  I envy your patience and work.    Gst

100% agree with you, this is an interesting place where we came to learn and share, thanks for you kind words compadre but still I considering myself still a Grasshopper on rodbuilding thats why I can here to ask, by the way I envy your work too and the place where you live even more.

if you position rod/blank horizontally & suspend weight from tip (line or no line)
YOU CAN NEVER EXCEDE 90 DEGREES -- that's just how gravity works
I thought you start w/ an empty bucket; gradually add weight 'til you get to 90*; AND STOP -- that's your TC rating

thanks for you valid input, I totally agree and understand the natural 90* bend on rods from an horizontal platform or blank holder as some factory or blank manufacturers test their rods and WE HOPE that our friends or customers use their finished rods always that way, never passing 90* while figthing a fish but we all know that normally never happens, we can always blame the fishemen for not taking care of the highsticking or the famous 90* max bend, so its better for us to know that our blank might not break the 1st time that pass 91* from a bend, any way, there are few blank manufacturers that Add their blanks with an extreme bend passing the 90* of recommended bend and of course there are other rod brands that also add the power of their rods lifting weights from the ground where the blank also pass the 90*.

Pacbay


Gary Looking NorthFork Composites, they advertize their blanks saying that each blank is tested before getting into the shipping box.




Blackhole


brands advertizing their fishing rods power lifting weights at 45*





some of those pics might Not apply with my original question on the opening post on how to test a blank from a manufacturing fault and also to find the natural curve on because of the quality material used on the blanks versus the $50 blank materials, but  Still in my mind is better to have a cheap rod blank breaking on a "lab light test" than building it with some expensive components and breaking on a customer's face under a good power cast with a lure a on the max weight of recommended specs.

as I said, from now on my lab test will be less agressive on new blanks before building them, then the normal static test to find the correct places for the guides.

I had tested some rods and drag force on a reel with the spring scale on my house fence attached to the line of the reel mounted on the rod, then I walk 10 steps away and make some pulls like figting a fish away from the boat, then check the pounds mark on the scale, that way let me control and avoid any highsticking on the rod.

[oc1]

That picture of the young lady testing the blank is spooky.  At least she's looking away and wearing gloves.
-steve

[gstours]

Alex things only start to get complicated in rod building when you are doing it for others either for gift or sale.   You can endure a lot because your talented and hopefully business savy.    That said,    I had a rod builder friend get 2 identical g loomis rods back from a customer that broke the first foot off down from the tip and claimed it to be on a fish and wanted them replaced for free.   I shudder at the thoughts that went thru my mind of the possible scenarios of fish fighting possibilities,  and then found out that the replacement was honored ...
  I have never in fifty years broked the top foot off on a fish,   butt once in a drift boat hit a rock, everything got rearranged and the rod got damaged and later failed, another time rods were slammed in a van door.  even banginging into a piling once with rods in the rodholders while loss of power contributed to a broken tip.....    You can only control what you do with your rods and of coarse hope others will be as carefull as you are ......
   I always transport my rods in fabric rod covers, and reel covers.   Its the right thing to do.  knicks and scratches will kill a composite or worse yet high end graphite rods,  the failure is hard to prove.  Ive broke my share,  Best of luck to your endeaver.   gst

[oc1]

I have never in fifty years broked the top foot off on a fish,  

They say that more rods are broken by doors (home and car) than fish.  

I use very thin tips, like 1/16 inch or so, and brake them all the time when they slap on the gunwale.  That and getting tip wraps from the wind.  The braid wraps around the guides so that when you pull on it (from the reel or from the water) the tip is bends back on itself toward one of the guides.  It's a sinking feeling when line is tangled on the guides, The tip is abut to break, the jig is snagged on the bottom and the boat is being blown along by the wind.  I once threw the rod and reel overboard before the tip broke and went back to retrieve it.  Then I learned to disconnect the tip section at the ferrule and let it go so line could play off the reel.

-s

[steelfish]

I to prove his veredic and I will build the 2nd blank I have, its an identical blank than the one just broke on me and once the guides are installed (with masking tape) I will try to deadlift 7# of weight again, with safety glasses, gloves and a catcher uniform in few weeks .
I will do it for the Science !!

my plans for the 2nd blank of the same "unknown maker" I will build it without any bling-bling or shiny colors, not spending much on the components, I already a decent reelseat, guides and will put some shrink wrap with a cord under and buttcap as the St croix legend surf rod and put it on use the Baja Style, it might break on a nice Spanish mack or leopard grouper or it might pass the real world test.

ok, this follow up took me more than "few weeks" and also I didnt built the blank with just cord / shrink tube as I said, mostly because since it was a not 100% trustful blank I took it to experiment with paints and grips sanding, so if it breaks it has served its purpose.
check here for more information and see pics.  https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=33808.0

any way, but I did the dead lift test as promised, well "kind of" deadlift, before building that rod, I put the grips in the blank without glue, as well as the reelseat, all guides were attached with masking tape on their final position and this time I used a 4 step ladder to avoid High sticking the blank, put the reel and passed the line through all the guides, this time I used a scale to measure the pulling drag, attached the end line to a 30# toolbox (it wasnt my plan to lift it but to have something heavy) and pulled slowly until having the tip down at 90*, after that I pulled bit stronger few times and checked the drag used, I need to say most of the pulled drag was with the rod at 0* (rod was horizontal to the floor but tip as 90* down) and made some strong pulls with the rod blank at 35* to 45* (check the attached image) and stopped when the scale read 11# drag, that was drag was reached taking care to the rod and with no highsticking it as the last time, I will have to remember that while fishing with it, I was actually in using it as the SlowPitch guys use their rods, most of the time pointing at the fish with the rod and some pulls to bring the fish to the boat.

1st pic is the method I followed to test drag on a light rod (not my picture) btw, it was on a rainshadow RCBL70XL with 10# lift
2nd and 3rd pic is my rod with the drag scale readings
4th image  high sticking zones for a fishing rod


what that Lab test done, I this rod its now ready for some real world test, stay tune for next follow up in 10 months   (j/k hopefully sooner)

[Cor]

Who resurrected this old, complicated but extremely interesting thread??

Will take me a week to read and understand it all again, but I will.

[jurelometer]

Thanks for the follow-up Alex.  You are now our resident expert on the "hold my beer" school of scientific experimentation.   

if you position rod/blank horizontally & suspend weight from tip (line or no line)

YOU CAN NEVER EXCEDE 90 DEGREES -- that's just how gravity works

I thought you start w/ an empty bucket;
gradually add weight 'til you get to 90*;
AND STOP -- that's your TC rating

Ooh- good point.  Missed this post before.  I think that my "90 degree" spiel was too simplified.

The first part about not being able to exceed 90 degrees if you are pulling from 90 degrees is important.

I disagree a bit with the second part.

A blank may only be lightly loaded when it first reaches 90 degrees.  Also: any blank can be overloaded to the point of failure at 90 degrees.   The key is how deeply the rod is bending.   

For fly rods, the rule of thumb is that two blanks  that take the same load to pull the tip down at 90 degrees for  a distance equal to 1/3 of the unloaded blank length will have the same casting "power" and will probably cast best with the same size fly line.  The blanks will still bend a bit more deeply on a distance cast, and a stiffer butt blank  can handle a heavier line better, but this still gives you a way to a get comparative rating for casting load without having to build the rod first.  You can also make a very good guess as to what size line an unlabeled  blank was designed for.  I haven't tried this on conventional/spinning  rods, but I bet that something similar would work for estimating optimal casting  weight for an unbuilt blank.

For max lifting load  on all rod types, the concept is the same,  but we need to take that 90 degree bend farther down the blank.  There is  a point where the blank feels like it has "bottomed out".  I think this is because it takes progressively more load to bend the rod more deeply (at that same 90 degree angle) but at some point  that progression starts to taper off.  This is where I think the blank  has reached its load limit.  I suspect that it may be difficult to accurately find this limit by simply observing the bend while increasing 90 degree load.

There is nothing specific  about exactly 90 degrees.  The blank will take even more load before bottoming out at 60 degrees, or 45, which is a common fish fighting technique when a lighter rod (like a fly rod, or bendy jigging rod)  is "overmatched" by a big fish. 

While nothing good happens while fishing a rod bent past 90 degrees, I agree with Alex that it makes  sense for custom builders to know a bit about a blank's resilience to overbending.  This is an important aspect of durability for real world usage.

-J

[Bill B]

Here is a picture of a Cabelas Downrigger rod that didn't break but worse for the wear after landing a 36# king salmon on the Sacramento River.  If I remember right the drag was set to about 7#.....BTW it is a 2 piece rod......Bill

[oc1]

How "worse for wear" Bill?  Does anybody know if a high modulus graphite rods can get "softer" from heavy usage?
Fibergalss rods will do that.

[Jeri]

How "worse for wear" Bill?  Does anybody know if a high modulus graphite rods can get "softer" from heavy usage?
Fibergalss rods will do that.

Seen it a lot with carbon surf rods, with age and heavy usage they do soften. And, if stored wrong for time, can take a set.

[Jeri]

This whole 'home testing' of blanks and possibly rods seems to have too many variables in play to get reliable or accurate results.

A company I used to work with did a lot of testing of prototype surf blanks, and others; to compare actual loads and the form of the curve to design various options within their range. The first thing they did was to take the 'human element' out of the equation by mounting the rod horizontally in simple clamps – at the very butt end and 1 meter up the blank (so basically where the blank/rod was being held in usage). This was all against a white board, so they could record what was achieved. On the floor was a ratchet track, where they could lock a simple pulley. Line went from the tip ring of the blank, down to the pulley and then via a strain gauge to a small motor and spool.

Now by just simply adjusting the position of the pulley on the ratchet track, they could measure very accurately the load achieve to bend the blank perfectly to 90 degrees, or in a few cases even more than 90 degrees – to try and simulate what was happening with any 'high stick' situations. On one very powerful 14', 2 piece blank – it tested out at 17.5kgs (38.5lbs), and pretty much only bent in the top half.

These types of evaluations helped them design better blanks, where comparisons between fully tapered butt sections against parallel butt sections could be accurately assessed, and also the placement of different strengths of carbon pre-preg in the flag layout. They also record the loads at different progressive angles to get a more meaningful impression of how the blank loads during casting and obviously fighting.

These mechanisms for blank testing have been in place for a very long time, and in certain circles are shared with the customers to actually define the blank/rod, like in Carp fishing, most will shop according to a desired 'test curve'.

As a slight by-product of their testing at the blank manufacturers, they found that guide types, placement and numbers also had a significant effect in the measured performance loadings.

[Bill B]

How "worse for wear" Bill?  Does anybody know if a high modulus graphite rods can get "softer" from heavy usage?
Fibergalss rods will do that.

Steve, it definitely softened up.  The rod is a medium action to start with.  I used it like a jigging stick and the rod no longer had enough stiffness to pop the 2 oz jig like before.  Still usable, but lost some of its backbone.  Bill

[jurelometer]

This whole 'home testing' of blanks and possibly rods seems to have too many variables in play to get reliable or accurate results.

A company I used to work with did a lot of testing of prototype surf blanks, and others; to compare actual loads and the form of the curve to design various options within their range. The first thing they did was to take the 'human element' out of the equation by mounting the rod horizontally in simple clamps – at the very butt end and 1 meter up the blank (so basically where the blank/rod was being held in usage). This was all against a white board, so they could record what was achieved. On the floor was a ratchet track, where they could lock a simple pulley. Line went from the tip ring of the blank, down to the pulley and then via a strain gauge to a small motor and spool.

Now by just simply adjusting the position of the pulley on the ratchet track, they could measure very accurately the load achieve to bend the blank perfectly to 90 degrees, or in a few cases even more than 90 degrees – to try and simulate what was happening with any 'high stick' situations. On one very powerful 14', 2 piece blank – it tested out at 17.5kgs (38.5lbs), and pretty much only bent in the top half.

These types of evaluations helped them design better blanks, where comparisons between fully tapered butt sections against parallel butt sections could be accurately assessed, and also the placement of different strengths of carbon pre-preg in the flag layout. They also record the loads at different progressive angles to get a more meaningful impression of how the blank loads during casting and obviously fighting.

These mechanisms for blank testing have been in place for a very long time, and in certain circles are shared with the customers to actually define the blank/rod, like in Carp fishing, most will shop according to a desired 'test curve'.

As a slight by-product of their testing at the blank manufacturers, they found that guide types, placement and numbers also had a significant effect in the measured performance loadings.

Have to  respectfully disagree a bit here on "home testing".  This is not rocket surgery.  It doesn't take much in equipment, just  a c-clamp, tape measure,  pull scale,  and a slow-mo camera if you want to get into resonant frequency. 

What is a bit harder to find is a rod builder with a working knowledge of the scientific process and an understanding of what needs to be measured.

The fundamental problem is that it may simply not be worth the efffort for the average custom builder acting alone.  They are  not getting much value by just measuring a blank or two.  You  have to invest in a set of comparable blanks from different suppliers. 

But this type of effort has been attempted  with modest success.  I recommend looking at  the Common Cents system used by custom fly rod builders:

https://common-cents.info

It works well for accurately predicting the fly line size best suited for a blank.  The companies have different market based strategies for rating the blanks,  so one model's  6 weight blank might be equivalent to another models's 8 weight, even from the same brand!  If a two blanks have similar action, power, and (to a lesser extent) frequency, they will not perform identically, but will both be similar and suitable for the same usage.

The basic premise of Common Cents is that the main dynamic characteristics of the blank to measure are the action (shape of the bend: fast, moderate, etc.), the amount of energy the blank can store when loading the cast (power), and how fast the energy can be released as the blank unbends (resonant frequency).

The process could be extended to measure at different load angles and depths of bend to better cover fish fighting and durability characteristics that were historically of less interest to fly fishers.  The was some work there, but it was not widely adopted.

I have discussed the Common Cents method for (casting) power measurement a bit earlier in is thread:   

Clamp the rod horizontally in the manner described by Jeri, apply 90 degree downward  vertical load to the tip unit the vertical distance travelled is 1/3 of the unbent blank length.  You get an exact vertical load by adding pennies to a baggie hung from the tip.  Count or weigh them pennies.  Easy Peasy.   Similar idea for the other charecteristics.   BTW, if somebody wanted to, they could take this measurement occasionally and capture the exact  softening of a rod over time.

I am wary of anything a tackle manufacturer says about the attributes, benefits or functional behavior of anything that they are selling.  They are in the business of catching fishermen, not fish.  And it seems that they believe in applying lots of "fertilizer" to help grow the business.

Just my contrarian position...

-J

[Jeri]

Have to  respectfully disagree a bit here on "home testing".  This is not rocket surgery.  It doesn't take much in equipment, just  a c-clamp, tape measure,  pull scale,  and a slow-mo camera if you want to get into resonant frequency. 

What is a bit harder to find is a rod builder with a working knowledge of the scientific process and an understanding of what needs to be measured.

The fundamental problem is that it may simply not be worth the efffort for the average custom builder acting alone.  They are  not getting much value by just measuring a blank or two.  You  have to invest in a set of comparable blanks from different suppliers. 

But this type of effort has been attempted  with modest success.  I recommend looking at  the Common Cents system used by custom fly rod builders:

https://common-cents.info

It works well for accurately predicting the fly line size best suited for a blank.  The companies have different market based strategies for rating the blanks,  so one model's  6 weight blank might be equivalent to another models's 8 weight, even from the same brand!  If a two blanks have similar action, power, and (to a lesser extent) frequency, they will not perform identically, but will both be similar and suitable for the same usage.

The basic premise of Common Cents is that the main dynamic characteristics of the blank to measure are the action (shape of the bend: fast, moderate, etc.), the amount of energy the blank can store when loading the cast (power), and how fast the energy can be released as the blank unbends (resonant frequency).

The process could be extended to measure at different load angles and depths of bend to better cover fish fighting and durability characteristics that were historically of less interest to fly fishers.  The was some work there, but it was not widely adopted.

I have discussed the Common Cents method for (casting) power measurement a bit earlier in is thread:   

Clamp the rod horizontally in the manner described by Jeri, apply 90 degree downward  vertical load to the tip unit the vertical distance travelled is 1/3 of the unbent blank length.  You get an exact vertical load by adding pennies to a baggie hung from the tip.  Count or weigh them pennies.  Easy Peasy.   Similar idea for the other charecteristics.   BTW, if somebody wanted to, they could take this measurement occasionally and capture the exact  softening of a rod over time.

I am wary of anything a tackle manufacturer says about the attributes, benefits or functional behavior of anything that they are selling.  They are in the business of catching fishermen, not fish.  And it seems that they believe in applying lots of "fertilizer" to help grow the business.

Just my contrarian position...

-J

O think we are at cross purposes here, the point that I was trying to make - and obviously didn't; is that all the photographed tests shown are with people holding the rod at all sorts of angles under load and hoping to get an accurate assessment of 90 degrees loading.

The mentioned Carp blank system has been around for decades, and while never formally accepted or regulated by all the various blank manufacturers, it did manage to offer some standard. As did the line weight system for fly rods, but throughout the industry there is no reliable and empirical measure of the power of a rod blank, only arbitrary assessments that may or may not be skewed by manufacturers commercial interests.

[gstours]

When you got to do what you gotta do.  Keep lifting, keep living.🎣🐙