Reel Down Surf Rods

[Jeri]

Reel Down Surf Rods

Jurelometer asked:

"Speaking of rod building styles.  I was always curious about those short rear grip shore rods from your part of the world.  There is a disadvantage to trying to wind against a big fish with the reel so close to the butt, and the first guide would have to be much lower on the rod which means the line can get the in the way of the front hand.  I am curious as to what the advantages are."

The system of southern African surf rods having reel seats in a low position and a long handle above, comes from the fact that a lot of big edible/sporting species and sharks and rays are caught from the shore. With more European/American style of surf rod design, and tucking the long handle between the legs could cause some horrific injuries in a long and protracted fight, so the locals down here developed rods for use with a boat fishing style rod belt.
Anchoring the butt end of the rod in the belt firstly gives a fulcrum point for the fight, and also allows two hands free for fighting the fish/shark, allowing much more pressure to be put on the rod. It also allows for some really powerful surf rods to be used with considerably more ease than traditional layouts, rods that are capable of cast 18-20oz of combined sinker and bait.
Traditionally with multipliers and nylon, and more recently with fixed spool reels and braid, the layout of guides and the passage of line during the cast rarely ever interferes with the upper/top hand during the cast. A point in case is the fixed spool and braid rods that I design have the first guide way up the rod, at 210cms (84") above the reel seat, and never a problem with line slap or line touching the hand.
The reel down layout is not unique to southern Africa, as it is a recognized scheme used in general fishing in the UK and also very popular for folks doing tournament distance casting over grass. One line of argument, is that the weight of the reel at the end of the rod, helps develop power on the final stages of the cast with gravity assist, rather than pushing a reel 'up' with a more traditional layout.
It is obviously unconventional to lots of American anglers, but is soon accommodated into one's armoury of skills once you have practiced it often enough. Once mastered it is no more or less effective than other schemes, but just gives the huge added advantage of the use of a butt pad, and down here it is almost universal in adoption, we even see little kids of 6 years old on the beach using a reel down rod and a butt pad. And I know which style I would prefer to use hooked up to an active 200lb shark ........................😊

[Sharkb8]

I seen on some videos from South Africa there spinning rods have some type of trigger to cast braided line could someone post a picture of one and described how it works thanks

Kim

[Tiddlerbasher]

Do you mean one of these:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sea-Fishing-Casting-Trigger-Cannon-Clip-Thumb-Button-Fixed-Spool-Casting-Aid/184409548262?epid=19007574982&hash=item2aefaa65e6:g:VLsAAOSw7PJZZf-p

Very useful - arguably a necessity for braid and heavy weight and bait - no cuts or strain on the fingers 

[Sharkb8]

Thanks for the link that's the one, I will have to try to find one here in south Australia and try it out.

Kim

[Jeri]

If there is a "Breakaway" distributor down there, they were the original designers. Called a Cannon Release, or locally known as 'bionic finger', as said essential for casting with braid leaders. There are various videos showing the use of the release, but best only to pass the braid over the capstan once, not 3 or 4 times as some videos suggest, as they make for a very staggered release - the single wrap is by far smoother.

Also we have seen some of the far east copies fail, with either the retaining loop pulling out, or the main body just snapping. Breakaway were very conscious about safety with their products.

Hope that helps.

[Newell Nut]

All around the world I have seen a lot of fishing styles and they all work for a certain species or certain conditions that dictate the style. There is no right or wrong if it puts food on the table and creates an adrenaline rush and a jackass grin on your face.

[JasonGotaProblem]

I just ordered one of those casting triggers. Tossing out a several oz chunk of meat with several oz of weight (specifically my finger's experience) has always been my least favorite part of surf casting. The listing said tape it on. And I will to see if I like it. But do you guys permanently mount it similar to how guides are attached?

The other thing I thing i was thinking about re: reel placement is that a reel mounted low means you can't really use the sand spike rod holder that's ever so popular stateside. That may be a factor. If you're fishing with a fighting belt and not a beer in hand that doesn't matter I guess.

[Tiddlerbasher]

When I used to surf fish I fixed the breakaway to the handle using heavy duty cable ties. You could probably use heat shrink tubing as well - I wouldn't trust ordinary sticky tape.

[oc1]

Yet another reason to use conventional multiplier reels.
-steve

[jurelometer]

Reel Down Surf Rods

Jurelometer asked:

"Speaking of rod building styles.  I was always curious about those short rear grip shore rods from your part of the world.  There is a disadvantage to trying to wind against a big fish with the reel so close to the butt, and the first guide would have to be much lower on the rod which means the line can get the in the way of the front hand.  I am curious as to what the advantages are."

The system of southern African surf rods having reel seats in a low position and a long handle above, comes from the fact that a lot of big edible/sporting species and sharks and rays are caught from the shore. With more European/American style of surf rod design, and tucking the long handle between the legs could cause some horrific injuries in a long and protracted fight, so the locals down here developed rods for use with a boat fishing style rod belt.
Anchoring the butt end of the rod in the belt firstly gives a fulcrum point for the fight, and also allows two hands free for fighting the fish/shark, allowing much more pressure to be put on the rod. It also allows for some really powerful surf rods to be used with considerably more ease than traditional layouts, rods that are capable of cast 18-20oz of combined sinker and bait.
Traditionally with multipliers and nylon, and more recently with fixed spool reels and braid, the layout of guides and the passage of line during the cast rarely ever interferes with the upper/top hand during the cast. A point in case is the fixed spool and braid rods that I design have the first guide way up the rod, at 210cms (84") above the reel seat, and never a problem with line slap or line touching the hand.
The reel down layout is not unique to southern Africa, as it is a recognized scheme used in general fishing in the UK and also very popular for folks doing tournament distance casting over grass. One line of argument, is that the weight of the reel at the end of the rod, helps develop power on the final stages of the cast with gravity assist, rather than pushing a reel 'up' with a more traditional layout.
It is obviously unconventional to lots of American anglers, but is soon accommodated into one's armoury of skills once you have practiced it often enough. Once mastered it is no more or less effective than other schemes, but just gives the huge added advantage of the use of a butt pad, and down here it is almost universal in adoption, we even see little kids of 6 years old on the beach using a reel down rod and a butt pad. And I know which style I would prefer to use hooked up to an active 200lb shark ........................😊

Thanks Jeri!  That helped.  At first I was all set to disagree with you, but after a bit of thinking, I think that I get it.   This is how I see it:

In terms of casting, the dominant hand is usually attached to the stronger arm, which means that you want it farthest from the butt, where most of the power is applied on the cast.  But the dominant hand can usually do a better job of spool control.  So that is where the reel goes.  Plus it gets the reel away from the butt of the rod which makes it easier for winding.

BUT:

For distance casting, especially with extra long rods, we get much more loading strength by reaching farther up the rod.  So this means pushing the reel FARTHER away from the butt.  I don't do tournament casting- but in all the photos and videos that I have seen,  distance tournament casters use this configuration.

Now for just casting or fighting smaller fish, all is well.  But what happens when you hook a big fish?

There is an optimal distance from rod butt to reel to wind ergonomically when the rodd butt is anchored against the hip or in a fishing belt.  For most adults, this  typically in the neighborhood of 18 inches from rod butt to handle arm axis.  With the reel pushed up three feet or more, there is no way to anchor the rod butt and still wind efficiently.

The solution is to move the reel to the bottom end of the rod, and control the reel from there.   A foot or less from rod butt to reel is not ideal for winding from a fighting belt, but it is doable, which cannot be said of a rod with the reel at 3 feet or more from the butt.   

Sound about right?   I am curious where the dominant hand typically goes when casting these rods.

All around the world I have seen a lot of fishing styles and they all work for a certain species or certain conditions that dictate the style. There is no right or wrong if it puts food on the table and creates an adrenaline rush and a jackass grin on your face.

Agreed.  Fads will come and go, but if folks fish a certain way year after year, there is usually a decent reason for it.  Sometimes more effective, sometimes more fun, sometimes both.  Sport fishing is mostly about recreation, and telling somebody else how they should have fun is about as pointless as it gets.

-J.

[Jeri]

I just ordered one of those casting triggers. Tossing out a several oz chunk of meat with several oz of weight (specifically my finger's experience) has always been my least favorite part of surf casting. The listing said tape it on. And I will to see if I like it. But do you guys permanently mount it similar to how guides are attached?

The other thing I thing i was thinking about re: reel placement is that a reel mounted low means you can't really use the sand spike rod holder that's ever so popular stateside. That may be a factor. If you're fishing with a fighting belt and not a beer in hand that doesn't matter I guess.

Hi Jason,

Because we build our rod with the reel seat 'threads down', we have clear space immediately in front of the reel seat to mount the Breakaway Canon. We just whip them in place with normal rod thread, and resin to suit. Some folks use cable ties, others tape, we just prefer to build a complete rod, so we fix them in place - one less thing to forget to pack when fishing.

Fishing with 'beer in hand' is achieved down here, we just have a sand spike with an 8" tube, so the reel comes above the sand spike.   

[Jeri]

Hi Jurelpmeter,

Some of the mechanics of your scenario of casting are slightly skewed. For power casting with long rods, the hand that produces the most power is the left, in a right handed person; because you generate more physical power 'pulling something towards you, rather than pushing it away. So, with the rod, with reel mounted low down - you are using the weight of the reel and gravity to assist with the cast in generating more power than if you were to place the reel in the high position.

18" for the placement of the reel stem from the rod butt, seems a little short, in an ideal situation, you would be looking at more like 26-30", the increase span of hand width being able to generate more power than closer hand span. Think of it like a sledge hammer, the greater the span holding the hammer, the more power being able to be generated - long levers over short levers.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Hi Jurelpmeter,

Some of the mechanics of your scenario of casting are slightly skewed. For power casting with long rods, the hand that produces the most power is the left, in a right handed person; because you generate more physical power 'pulling something towards you, rather than pushing it away. So, with the rod, with reel mounted low down - you are using the weight of the reel and gravity to assist with the cast in generating more power than if you were to place the reel in the high position.

18" for the placement of the reel stem from the rod butt, seems a little short, in an ideal situation, you would be looking at more like 26-30", the increase span of hand width being able to generate more power than closer hand span. Think of it like a sledge hammer, the greater the span holding the hammer, the more power being able to be generated - long levers over short levers.

Interestingly I was thinking about this last night. I'm no sword expert by a long shot but from what kendo and kenjutsu training i do have I can tell you that when cutting the power comes from the bottom hand, or when using a sword one handed it comes from the pinky finger, believe it or not.

The way I swing a sword has always influenced the way I cast, but I'm not sure I can give a meaningful explanation for that.

[Jeri]

Hi Jurelpmeter,

Some of the mechanics of your scenario of casting are slightly skewed. For power casting with long rods, the hand that produces the most power is the left, in a right handed person; because you generate more physical power 'pulling something towards you, rather than pushing it away. So, with the rod, with reel mounted low down - you are using the weight of the reel and gravity to assist with the cast in generating more power than if you were to place the reel in the high position.

18" for the placement of the reel stem from the rod butt, seems a little short, in an ideal situation, you would be looking at more like 26-30", the increase span of hand width being able to generate more power than closer hand span. Think of it like a sledge hammer, the greater the span holding the hammer, the more power being able to be generated - long levers over short levers.

Interestingly I was thinking about this last night. I'm no sword expert by a long shot but from what kendo and kenjutsu training i do have I can tell you that when cutting the power comes from the bottom hand, or when using a sword one handed it comes from the pinky finger, believe it or not.

The way I swing a sword has always influenced the way I cast, but I'm not sure I can give a meaningful explanation for that.

Have used a simple demonstration to show this 'pull stronger than push' scenario. Stand face to face with another person - extend your hand face up and curl the fingers slightly, get the other person to do the same, to interlock with your fingers. Now push - hardly enough to topple the person. Now pull, and you can easily topple the person off balance.

Not hugely scientific, but does demonstrate the power of pulling, and as such how to generate power in casting a long surf rod, the top hand is basically just guiding the direction of the rod in the swing, and providing a pivot point for the leverage of the rod.

[jurelometer]

Thanks all for the replies.  This is a very interesting discussion, but we are splitting off into a bunch of tangents.  Please allow me to see if I can thread them back together.

Short version of my position: with the long reach on the top hand when distance casting conventionals on these specialized rods, the reel cannot be manipulated  when located above the top hand.  It is too far to reach for both casting, and fighting big fish.  So for distance casting rods, the reel is moved toward the bottom of the blank, but the the dominant hand still remains on top for casting.


Long, detailed discussion:

First of all a correction.  I stated that I didn't think that  tournament distance casters were  using the reel down style.  After doing a bit of snooping around the web, it appears that this may not be correct.  If anybody has a link to a good tournament casting site, please post.   I don't want to mislead anyone.

Check out this video purported to be a recent wold record cast:


Jeri stated that the reason for the reel down style was to place the reel in a location that would allow a fighting butt to be used.  I would go even further from looking at the video.  The top  hand is so far up  the rod that it would difficult to control the cast as well.  Once you commit to the long reach, the reel has to be by the bottom hand.

In terms of the distance from rod butt to reel ideal for fighting with a belt, I Think this is a tangent that  we don't need  to resolve for the question at hand, other than to agree that you can't put the reel up by the top casting hand and still use a fighting belt.  When the reel is very close to the body, you are restricted to using the lower arm muscles to wind.  As a saltwater fly fisher, this is something that I am painfully aware of.  Something similar happens when the reel is too far away from the body, further aggravated by the instability from the elbow and shoulder joints being fully extended.  There is a sweet spot somewher in between, that will vary based on the size of the angler,  location of the fulcrum (fighting belt pocket), and perhaps the rod angle mostly used during the fight.    I just measured the only heavier factory fighting belt rod rod that I still own, an old 6 foot Penn/Saber.  15 inches from butt to reel.  So the exact answer probably depends on several variables that surf style fishing may alter.

I noticed some variance in butt grip length in the tournament videos.  Note in the one referenced here, it looks to be on the longer end.  I think that the caster might be using the butt to steady the rod during the cast. The one funny thing about reel-down rods, is that as long as you have to thumb the spool to start the cast, there will be unused rod length below the bottom hand when launching the cast.  I need to go back to the video, and see where the bottom hand goes.

In terms of Jason's note about a truism of power coming from the pinky, I don't think that that should be taken literally.  Check out the relative muscle mass involved .   The pinky is critical for gripping a cylinder, and without a solid grip, you cannot control a swing.  I busted a pinky playing baseball, and lost my batting practice privileges for awhile due to flying bats. I felt plenty strong, but coach said that I was dangerous, whatever that meant.

In terms of which hand is providing the force when two-handed swinging a cylinder, you also have to look at how momentum from leg and core muscles are being applied, relation to the source of body rotational forces, how far the hands are apart, where the fulcrum is, and so on.  I don't think that simple arm push vs pull strength is telling the whole story, especially considering how much the whole body is used to execute these casts.

Biomechanics favor forward motion, especially when the whole body is involved.  Can't think of any baseball pitchers that throw backwards.  Baseball (hitting), golf, pole vaulting - the two-handed shaft sports that I can think of, the dominant hand is farthest from the fulcrum.  

I do agree with Jeri that fine motor control from the dominant hand is also valuable.  For example, I cannot cast a conventional as well with my non-dominant hand on top.   The muscle memory and timing is what I feel that I am missing, and not a lack of strength.    This agrees  with what Jeri was saying about controlling the cast with the top hand.  OTOH, while  I  apply force to both hands,  I feel that I am applying more to the top hand, even though it has more leverage. So it may be a combination of strength and control.  Somewhere buried in the internet, there is probably a more definitive answer from experts in biomechanics, but I didn't find anything yet.

In terms of dominant hand:  From looking at more tournament casting videos with both classic and reel down style rods, it looks like the right hand is almost always on top.  So it looks like dominant hand on top, just like classic  recreational two-handed casting.

Regarding reel location and weight: Considering the weight of the reel vs. the forces involved,  I don't think this is much of factor with a light tounament reel.  Maybe with a sportfishing reel?  But whatever effect there is from inertia from reel weight, the greater the distance from the fulcrum, the more negative it will be for casting distance.  You want to to ramp up to maximum aceleration and then de-acelerate as quickly as possible.  Move any added weight farther from the fulcrum, and this will be more difficult.

-J