alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Jig rod guides recommendation.
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
January 16, 2021, 03:26:41 AM *
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Author Topic: Jig rod guides recommendation.  (Read 497 times)
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boon
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2021, 07:02:54 PM »

  I,m not sure what is meant from the above text?  So i,ll re ask.
  The guide immediately before the stripper is clocked slightly past centre to clockwise (looking from the butt). This makes the line come through the middle of the stripper guide and improves line-lay. If all your transition guides go anti-clockwise the line will come through the side of the stripper guide and you will end up with line stacking on one side of the reel.
    Below is some info i copied from the computer forums that I could find.   Is line stacking more of a problem with non levelwind reels?

For what I consider to be a "true" mechanical jigging reel, the spool is tall and very narrow; also the reels are relatively small and low-ish capacity to keep the weight down for the jigging part. They are also (almost) never level-wind.

Typical line capacity is in the realm of 300-400m; because the spools are narrow if you take 150m off the reel there is plenty of time to cause problems if you stack all the line on one side of the reel. Also if you're jigging (mechanical jig style) it is almost impossible to manage line-lay while you do it; that's why I use a spinning reel and overhead folk use narrow reels that generally manage line lay on their own, assuming the guide layout isn't pulling all the line to one side of the reel.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 01:06:02 AM by boon » Logged

gstours
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2021, 04:26:41 PM »

Thanks again for sharing your information.  If itís good or not, and maybe too early to say anything.....
   There seems to be some ideas on the early correction of what happens at the stripper guide and the next one away.    This is for rods that can lose a hundred yard quickly and the line is wound on a little at a time.
    Inthe pic below the second guide starts the issue.
 The second pic shows a smaller guide slightly away from the way the spiral is following.   Here I will call it a correction guide,  as I think it job is to pull the line down from the stripper guide and try to hold it in the center of the line coming up onto the reel unattended?    From what Iíve gathered.....
   


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gstours
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2021, 04:30:57 PM »

It also seems l as soon as practicable the transition to the 180 degrees should be made.  Maximum advantage is attained.  It seems....?


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gstours
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2021, 04:57:46 PM »

This seems like option #1.    Like so many things,  it might not be a fine point.   Butt here is more findings.. Wink
  This picture is from a video from a rod supply tutorial and was pirated for this forum.  For information sharing only.   And thanks.   2
  The view is from the butt,  the stripper guide is shown with a dot in side showing the line coming back to the reel in theory.  By offsetting it firstly,  the line wonít be in the center of the guide under the fighting cranking process.....    Possibly it does 2 things,  eliminates the second offset opposite guide and saving some space.   And helps keep the in coming line more to the center of the spool when unattended like a conventional rod.   This seems logical.
   I hope to find out,  and report back with some pictures and be able to help others.
       Thanks again to all,   Be safe,   Stick around.🎣


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boon
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2021, 07:46:13 PM »

In my head that makes sense, I think. Nice diagram, explains it clearly.

Thinking it through, I suspect the logic for using the second "correction" guide instead of offsetting the stripper guide is because if you presumably aligned the "dot" with the middle of the spool (side-to-side middle), there would be more resistance to loading the left side of the spool (pulling against the guide) than the right. With a centred stripper guide and "correction" second guide, I think it's more neutral?
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Jeri
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2021, 10:58:17 PM »

Looking at the various photos, and this need to try and bias the retrieved line more centrally to the reel. Is the problem exaggerated by the use of larger size guides as the first guide - seems in the photos they are all size 25 or more. There might be a benefit to using a small eye size guide that is high enough not to cause problems - like a Fuji LC 16M. We use these guides a lot for the height of the guide (35mm), and being a smaller eye size, will reduce the problems encountered with the larger eye size guides.

If they weren't only recommended for up to 20lb class rods, the Fuji WDB guides with the narrow oval insert might also be an option.

The rods are generally not being used for casting so guide size can possibly be taken down considerably, without detriment to overall performance.

Just a thought.
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jurelometer
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2021, 11:40:56 AM »

Here is  one of the new Fuji frames that Jeri mentioned. I like them, and they do look nice. This one has the Fazlite insert.  Fazlites are relatively inexpensive  and probably more durable than the higher end inserts.  I have been using Fazlite tips, but am building my first rod with all Fazlite guides.




Here is a Fuji reel seat with a big trigger in the back.  These are called palming reel seats because they allow you to cup a low profile reel  in your left hand when working the rod.   You can also get a couple fingers ahead of the trigger when casting, IMHO much better for casting and working jigs, especially heavier stuff.

These seats worked well for me with smaller conventionals that are medium width ( like a Newell 220), but are
a thing of beauty with a big low profile.  I would not build a rod for a low profile saltwater reel without a palming seat.

Since these seats are top locking, I like to add a lock ring to provide more thread contact area in addition to preventing loosening from boat vibrations over time.   I also cut back the threaded portion. These seats are pretty long.   Finding Fuji lock rings can be difficult.  I think that Get Bit carries them.  

You can see the lock ring and shortened seat on the completed rod in the photo.



Don't know how well these seats will work with a tall reel.  If you are not casting, and cannot palm a tall reel, not sure what any trigger seat will do for you.

I have some opinions on building the rod that I will post separately.    Nobody reads more than a paragraph or two nowadays Smiley

-J
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 01:52:02 AM by jurelometer » Logged
jurelometer
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2021, 12:50:14 PM »

I only build two or three rods per year, usually when I want something not available off the shelf, so take this with a grain of salt:


1. Make sure that you can tuck the butt under the armpit when working the reel.  This usually means moving the reel seat up an inch or two from a typical location.  If the rod is real short and you want to do spiral wraps, it might be a difficult compromise.  A small bulb shaped butt cap is nice.

2.  Spilt rear grips don't really save much weight on these rods, and are on the short end of the fulcrum.  I see these as mostly a cosmetic feature for drop jigging rods.  Split grips suck for blank damage during use, and get in the way or worse if you need to temporarily stick the rod in a holder for some reason. Cork and especially  foam grips do not inhibit bending in any significant amount.

3.  Single foot guides snag on things more, tangle with slack braided line more easily, and are more easily damaged.  Pull out is also a problem, but better builders than I claim this is manageable with proper wrapping and using wider foot singles where needed.  My opinion is to use single foot guides only wher they can clearly provide a benefit.  I don't think there is much benefit on a short rod used for dropping larger jigs.  If you really want to save weight, smaller guides can be used as Jeri noted.

4. For bendy rods, I am now using composite cork rings for reel seat arbors under the ends of the seat with a section of fiberglass mesh tape for an arbor in the middle. When under heavy load, many factory jigging rods have a very acute bend  where the blank meets the reel seat.  The composite cork arbors makes the transition to the stiff section under the reel seat more gradual.  For any rod that bends past the reel seat, a shorter reel seat is probably beneficial.

5. Spiral wrap rods are a pain to manage on a boat.  There  is always a guide sticking out  the wrong way when you try to stow the rod(especially in a gunnel rack) and setting the rod on the deck with the reel up means that the runner guides  are scraping on the deck.  Laying the rod down  with reel on the non-handle side scrapes the transition guides.  I would want to  see enough benefit in spiral wrapping  for a specific blank and usage before going this route.  The only thing that I can think of is less tip tangles when vigorously jigging, but the new anti-tangle tip frames have now pretty much fixed this problem for standard guide on top wrapped rods.

I have only built one spiral wrapped bendy jigging rod, and did not use it much. It took one less guide than a standard wrap.  I did not find any obvious performance benefit  or detriment from the spiral  wrap.  Folks with more experience might have some better guidance here.

-J
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 01:54:24 AM by jurelometer » Logged
boon
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2021, 05:08:50 PM »

The spiral wrap is intended to stop the rod from trying to roll over when it's under a big load. It does a good job when you REALLY bend a rod through the full length, and the effect is more pronounced when using a tall reel.

The current bleeding edge of blanks which are made from a helix of opposing spiral tapes, instead of a rolled sheet, have less tendency to want to "turn inside out". I have a Shimano Grappler slowjig rod built in this manner (they call it "Spiral X") that has a conventional guide layout and I have never felt it want to roll over, even with a fairly tall reel (OJ 2000NR).
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Swami805
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2021, 05:54:41 PM »

I built a couple spiral wrapped rods in the 90's when I first learned of it. I really tried to like them but found no real benefit, at least not enough to out weigh negatives. Like many things it's personal preference though, might be worth a try and see what you think.
The concept has been around for a long time, there's a reason is hasn't really caught on.
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oc1
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2021, 08:40:24 PM »

The current bleeding edge of blanks which are made from a helix of opposing spiral tapes, instead of a rolled sheet, have less tendency to want to "turn inside out". I have a Shimano Grappler slowjig rod built in this manner (they call it "Spiral X") that has a conventional guide layout and I have never felt it want to roll over, even with a fairly tall reel (OJ 2000NR).

That's really interesting Boon.  The opposing spirals sounds like filament winding.  The technique has been around for a long time to make tanks, pipe and even boat masts.  But I never heard of it being used for fishing rods... except, perhaps, for DIY. 

Rolling rods from prepreg cloth will leave a seam where the cloth begins and ends.  That's what creates a spine in a rod.  Filament winding eliminates the spine.

-steve
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Jeri
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2021, 11:15:59 PM »

Slight diversion from the core jigging rod theme, but when we built a few surf rods with spiral wrapped guides and with nylon lines, we found that the spiral wrapping significantly removed the roll-over effect, but more importantly for our long two handed surf rods, it removed a lot of stress from the non-winging hand holding the rod. Formerly with conventional guide set ups, people fighting larger fish often had a lot of stress on the non-winding hand, from subconsciously grabbing the upper handle with a death like grip - to stop the rod trying to roll over.

As to the newer Fazlite inserts from Fuji, I have been using them on a personal rod for over 12 months now, and experienced no problems with them, and certainly no negative effects on the longevity of the braid.

Hope that helps.
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gstours
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2021, 09:15:58 AM »

Thanks for everyone chiming in and trying to help me, the helpless Huh?
   I,m here to learn and my questions may help others as well,  this is why Alans idea for a forum makes him King.
As for the stripper guide and what it does in the spiral rap application another Idea came to mind.   This guide now in my estimation, needs to be no larger inside diameter than the smallest diameter used down the length of the rod.   No wind on leaders, nor casting, ie..
  As we go through life there may be questions,  some times a change, however slight, things may seem better for the beholder.
    Sharing information here is free, and friendly.   Almost every time a question is raised an answer is given and multiple options generally assist the question.   
  I now know a lot more about the spiral wrap jig rod than I did before penning the inquiry.    Its now in the works ,  pictures will be posted in a while for sure Wink       Thanks again.       gs.
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