"Missing" the spine

[oc1]

A blank that is crooked adds another dimension to the spine thing.  Bent sections were common in the early days of rolling rods before the manufacturers worked out the kinks. Today, the really cheap Chinese blanks often have a bent tip section.  The butt sections seem more likely to be straight.  I think it is caused by the pencil wrapper being tighter on one side than the other.  It may be shoddy workmanship, poor quality control or sending the bent blanks to the discount suppliers.  The spine will definitely follow an innate bend.   Like Tommy, I wrap them so the rod bends down at the tip.  It amplifies the bend from the lure hanging off the end of the rod but does not look or act weird.

[steelfish]

Basically, at the end of the day, any blank can be built in just 2 positions, and 358 degrees of wrong positions.

358* of wrong positions. haha.

that made me recall, that what I told to one of my friends that asked me if he can use a spinning reel on a casting rod (with regular reelseat not trigger style), he was anxious to use the reel but didnt have proper light spinning rod for it but one of this casting rods have the 1st and 2nd guide big enough to dont stop that much the line coming from a spinning reel, he was worried to break the rod since now it will be bending 180* contrary of its normal use, I told him that considering most of the factory rods are not build on the spine I dont know for sure if the rod will be bending 180* contrary to its spine, maybe only 130* or 35* who knows, so I would used it with no worries until buying a proper spinning rod (that mostly wont be build on the spine either).

but what do I know.

[boon]

I'd say virtually all cheap rods aren't built over or under the spine. They're built however the factory worker in China picked up the blank and jammed a reel seat on the bottom.

Speaking more broadly... personally I'm not going to obsess over the minutiae of the performance of a $40 stick. There's a reason it's $40. High performance comes with a high performance price tag.

[Breadfan]

I used to build a lot of golf clubs and I "spined" my steel and graphite shafts too. I have a device that is basically two bearings mounted in a steel tube about 6 inches long. You stick the butt in it, then take a loose bearing and hold it on the tip applying pressure downwards, which in turn makes the shaft "jump" to the neutral position. Works well on fishing rods too, and I saw that Mudhole was selling them. Makes it easy. Or you could just put the tip on the floor and bend it and let it roll in your hand, same difference.

[quabbin boy 62]

the way I learned to find the spine is: hang a towel or? over the side a a table, tie about 1/2 oz sinker to the butt. take the tip in one hand and place the midsection over the table so the table is about 1/2 way up, then rotate the blank slowly until you feel it jump a little, that's the spine. if it's for a spinning rod, place your guides on the spine, for a conventional , 180 degrees opposite.

[UKChris1]

I hope this isn't too long since the last post to comment but I have a rod that is build 'on the spine' (not spline) - a longish 12-20lb rod. I almost love it since it has caught a lot of fish using artificial lures on deep wrecks but - and here's the rub - when the blank is bent with a fish on, it tries to roll sideways. This is because, of course, the blank is softer 'off the spine'. It is very irritating, but not so bad that I would re-wrap it.

It is exactly (well, with a bit if exaggeration) like bending a length of 2x4" timber - it bends easier one way than the other. If you try to bend the 4" way, it will try to roll round and bend the 2" way.

Whilst that rod is a pain, and my own fault for not checking before buying, it would be an impossible problem on a much heavier rod. I can't imagine the issue of an 80lb chair rod trying to twist when being worked hard on a fish, or a 50-80 stand-up stick doing likewise.

I do now check boat rods before purchase to ensure they wont try to roll over when in a fighting curve.

Beachcasters are a different matter - if the rings are 'on the spine', casting is all awry as the rod will twist during the cast and won't follow the correct path through the air for maximum distance.

[smnaguwa]

Very interesting thread. I have 2 questions - (1) does the spine matter as much in spiral wrapped rods?, (2) in some rods where I can see the "cloth", the cloth seems to be wrapped  spirally. Would that affect the spine?

[JasonGotaProblem]

I hope this isn't too long since the last post to comment

I love seeing my threads brought back to life, and this was an especially fun one. So thank you.

Beachcasters are a different matter - if the rings are 'on the spine', casting is all awry as the rod will twist during the cast and won't follow the correct path through the air for maximum distance.

Forgive me but I'm unsure what you're saying here. If possible can you rephrase it?

[jurelometer]

Very interesting thread. I have 2 questions - (1) does the spine matter as much in spiral wrapped rods?, (2) in some rods where I can see the "cloth", the cloth seems to be wrapped  spirally. Would that affect the spine?

1. (Assuming you are referring to spiral wrapped guides here)  On a spiral wrap, the top part of the rod (before the transition) is doing the bulk of the work affected by load on the guides.  So the effect of spine alignment for spirals wrapped rods should  be pretty much the same as any other other guide-on-the-inside-of-the-curve build, including spinning and fly rods.  These rods will be less affected by spine misalignment when fighting/winding, but the effect on casting will be more or less the same as guide on top.

2.  The closer the fibers are to parallel to the length, the stiffer  the overlap section (probably more pronounced spine).  But the more diagonal fibers are usually used in the outermost flags, so what you see on the outside  will  not be  indicative of what is underneath.    A rod made mostly out of diagonal fibers would be a super noodle, and  is probably pretty uncommon.  BUT...

I have read that quality control has the main influence on how prominent the spine is, and this makes sense. If you want to crank out lots of rods quickly, cut your flags so that they have lots of overlap, and don't worry about the overlaps stacking up over each other layer on top of layer. As long as the prepreg is rich enough in resin, it will come put looking nice and round with a bit of sanding.  

BTW:  I think that rod companies  don't typically use special tape or cloth to get those diagonals.  They just cut the flags out of the prepreg  at a greater angle.

-J.

[oc1]

After rolling and curing the blank then removing the mandrel it is sanded to make the outside diameter uniform in all directions.  There is a rotating sanding machine for that.  The sanding will chamfer the edge of the last flag.

I do not know the impact of sanding on the spline but it seems logical that there would be one.

[Jeri]

Beachcasters are a different matter - if the rings are 'on the spine', casting is all awry as the rod will twist during the cast and won't follow the correct path through the air for maximum distance.

I've built beach casters both for multipliers and fixed spool (spinners), both at 0 degrees and 180 degrees to the spine, and none of the 4 variations have had any casting problems with either uni-directional styles of casting (Hatteras or OTG) of full pendulum. Never found any twisting or torque loading aspect affecting the casts. But then as mentioned previously we mostly build on very predominant 'J' curve blanks. Didn't find any twisting or torque component even when we built a spiral wrapped multiplier beachcaster.

[smnaguwa]

J, thanks for the tutorial.

[UKChris1]

Jerry, thanks for that. My casting isn't good enough to detect difference but my mate, who can cast across the English Channel to fish the beaches of France (honest!  ), says he can detect the effect on his casting if a rod is built with rings aligned to the 'firm' side.

JasonGotaPenn, when he casts well (full pendulum) with a rod where the rings are aligned on the soft side, the rod loads up under power and curves around him before unwinding to propel the lead where he's aimed it. When the rings are not so aligned, he says he can feel the rod try to twist in his hands at the moment of full power as it tries to bend along the softest line. In the worst cases, there is a kick that ought not be there.

It is exactly the effect I detect in my 12=20 boat rod when there is a fish on, but more dramatic given the forces involved in sending 6oz of lead more than 200 yards when beachcasting.

But, as I say, I can't cast well enough to detect that; I'm happy just to reach to water.

[Jeri]

Jerry, thanks for that. My casting isn't good enough to detect difference but my mate, who can cast across the English Channel to fish the beaches of France (honest!  ), says he can detect the effect on his casting if a rod is built with rings aligned to the 'firm' side.

Is it just a case of being able to detect the slightly stiffer action, which obviously does not suit his preferred casting style/action? We have plenty of folks that prefer their rods built on the 'firm' side to enable that more aggressive power stroke, rather than the more forgiving 'soft' side. The loading action of rods in very powerful casting styles is different again to more softer styles, and this is where personal preferences of different casters will be different. No one build system suits all people, generalisations should be avoided, or explored and disproved.

The only time I have detected any serious amount of 'twisting in the cast', has been on rods not built on either of the prime axes, and that has come from both soft styles and full pendulum; and they were factory built rods, where spine consideration is minimal.

[UKChris1]

I know reporting other people's preferences is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding but my casting mate does truly sort out the exact firmness he prefers (and his beach rods are far stiffer than mine) and he is very fussy in that respect.

Over the years, he has been through many (a bit like me and my stand-up rod choices  ) and I guess never quite finding perfection. I can only say that he would reject a rod that wasn't built on the soft side, though to me that rod would be poker-stiff. Soft being a relative term.

The ideal of course is a rod where the wrap of the cloth on the mandrel is so well calculated that there is no hard and soft sides, but that is not so easy to achieve.

I couldn't use any of his rods properly as I lacked the skill to really bend them in a cast. He made it look effortless.

There was a plus side though. He said his rods softened after a lot of use - I think some fly rods are said to do the same - and he sold a couple on to me 

Indeed, people do have their own preferences and I try not to be dogmatic (mostly). What suits me might not be for you, and vice versa.

Cheers