alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Fg knot questions
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
February 27, 2021, 12:21:33 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Fg knot questions  (Read 657 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
boon
Sensei
Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 613


« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2021, 06:54:53 AM »

Looking really closely at your "pink" version of the knot - where is the "standing part" coming from? There is loose braid in your knot somewhere; either your wraps aren't under enough tension or you're not cinching down the half-hitches, I would wager a little of column A and a little of column B?
Logged

gstours
Firearms Group
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 3175



« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2021, 01:03:44 AM »

 Thanks for caring and sharing ,  Mr. Boon.    I,m not sure which pink line picture your referring to?   
   You advised to"4 alternating wraps around braid only,"   This i have not tried yet.....   Ive been stuck on wraps continuing to try to make the knot smooth in the end of the braid.    I,d rather the knot was strong firstly,  going thru the guides is a seperate issue for conversation. Wink
   There are several other knots for connecting the mono to braid and they all have some merit it seems.    I,m here to hear! Grin
Logged
Rivverrat
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 2739



« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2021, 02:18:03 PM »

   The FG is one I have used & has been stated it has to be cinched down tight where it goes almost clear. Prior to cinching down it needs to be wet. It's really much simpler than some are making it. I posted a link sometime ago of a very simple way to tie it. I will say I test all of my knots with scales, prior to ever making use of them tied off on a tree & after soaking line & knot in water for an hour or more.

   My experience is some knots test much higher dry than others. I am very anal in some respects when it comes to my fishing.  I kept two 5 gallon buckets of river water specifically for trying different knots. Simply because river water is different from tap water & made a difference in the knots failure rate... I think  Wink

  Alan brought up testing his knots break strength. Someone questioned why ?   Questioning something is most always a good thing. For me I'm after record. I have been within oz. several times in 4 different states. Numerous times this would not have been possible under the conditions I was fishing had I not been able to push the line used & knot to it's known tested, average limit.  Ande Monster for me had the most consistent average break point through out it's different sizes.  

My testing has revealed to me Ande Monster makes as good a leader as some that are sold as such. Has great knot strength. It's abrasion resistance can be better than some leader. Ande Monster is not a line I use exclusively. But when called upon it has become one I trust more than any other when used in harsh settings. It's diameter is not much more than Big Game. However there is the associated memory issues that go with lines like this.

  All my reels star drags, 2 speeds etc. have the lever & star marked so I know what the drag is from a cold start. I also mark the spool so as line diminishes I know how much drag I have after a long cast or with fish pulling line. This also allows me to drift back to the same exact spot as prior . I do my best to make sure that if I lose a fish it's not because of the line, knot or reel failure. I want lite weight rods that dont cry or break when fished passed there rated capacity. After 50 + years of chasing the fish I love on the river this is what has worked best for me.

  I am confident if the fish I'm after is there... One, he's never met any one like me  Wink  Two, he's coming to bank or boat at some point!!  May not be today or tomorrow. But at some point HE'S COMING OUT while attached to my hook. This stuff keeps me up at night. It makes my heart rate change just thinking about it. It effects me to my very core.

   The knot used may in fact be the weakest link in our combo of choice. It does knot nor should it " EVER " be an issue with losing fish... Jeff
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 03:20:32 PM by Rivverrat » Logged
gstours
Firearms Group
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 3175



« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2021, 05:41:21 PM »

The Fg.......
   Thanks for recent information,  I havenít given up yet on the knot,  butt others may have better luck.
       Also the last statement about the wetting the line by soaking in a bucket is affordable as it rains a bunch.    It also confirmed my experience about science in this matter as I have a friend that suggested that the true test can only be made with the wet line to duplicate what is actually happening in the water.
    Now do I use the same saltwater and bring it in the house 🏠?    Butt this fella is an expert in everything and wonít show or help me...... and wonít join this forum as we have either......?
   Butt there are several other knots that could be used.   I also donít want fish failure.....
The pointer shows the area where most of my sc, fg, and now pr knots show separation following the strain.   The knots move some in the strain.    Almost always.   This one is pretty....... nice.👍


* 2E6EBAB1-35CE-4679-8FFA-9B9BB1E49148.jpeg (702.46 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 3 times.)
Logged
gstours
Firearms Group
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 3175



« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2021, 05:43:33 PM »

The short Albright is good,  easy, and shows some promise.


* 5D873AAB-B79F-42BE-BD79-5F8FCF526B51.jpeg (874.97 KB, 2048x1536 - viewed 2 times.)
Logged
gstours
Firearms Group
Member
**
Online Online

Posts: 3175



« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2021, 05:53:40 PM »

The bobbin knot is no harder to tie than the fg butt takes a tool, not a big deal,  I guess itís called the pr knot?   
    Iíve had some surprises in the testing department as some knots will seem nearly to Max in the strain ,and using a ratcheting puller when left for a half hour, kapok.    The failure occurred.    😾
    Maybe my expert friend knows why?   🤔


* 4FB3386F-1563-4A2C-A170-FD3F05AA414D.jpeg (594.01 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 3 times.)

* 63D8D9E1-DB04-489C-AAFA-ADEABD2E321E.jpeg (760.77 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 4 times.)
Logged
the rockfish ninja
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 414



« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2021, 08:50:43 PM »

The bobbin knot is no harder to tie than the fg butt takes a tool, not a big deal,  I guess itís called the pr knot?  
    Iíve had some surprises in the testing department as some knots will seem nearly to Max in the strain ,and using a ratcheting puller when left for a half hour, kapok.    The failure occurred.    😾
    Maybe my expert friend knows why?   🤔

I'm no expert, in fact I was just recently happy to be able to pull it off, but like you say the PR knot is easy with the tool, maybe easier.

This is the vid that gave me the basics of getting the PR to work, I've added some hitches above it to smooth it out over the guides. No fails so far on my SPJ trips, and it's going over micro guides on a slow pitch jigging rod.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 08:53:52 PM by the rockfish ninja » Logged

Deadly Sebastes assassin.
Rivverrat
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 2739



« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2021, 09:33:33 PM »

The Fg.......
   Thanks for recent information,  I havenít given up yet on the knot,  butt others may have better luck.
       Also the last statement about the wetting the line by soaking in a bucket is affordable as it rains a bunch.    It also confirmed my experience about science in this matter as I have a friend that suggested that the true test can only be made with the wet line to duplicate what is actually happening in the water.
    Now do I use the same saltwater and bring it in the house 🏠?    
The pointer shows the area where most of my sc, fg, and now pr knots show separation following the strain.   The knots move some in the strain.    Almost always.   This one is pretty....... nice.👍

    Just test wet you'll be fine. I get carried away Shocked
 Now there is glue that is used on knots that can be a benefit in helping with knots fraying from passing through the guides when casting. however I dont wish to pack any more crap with me when fishing. It can get ridiculous.

What I do is use a long enough top shot or a short leader so my braid to mono knot never passes through the guides UNLESS A FISH DOES IT while using a longer top shot vs short leader.

  Just an observation.... please dont let your friends expertness wear to much on your relationship. Life long fishing friends take work & are to be cherished for what they are... Jeff
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 09:35:54 PM by Rivverrat » Logged
jurelometer
Sensei
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 834


« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2021, 11:56:52 PM »

The bobbin knot is no harder to tie than the fg butt takes a tool, not a big deal,  I guess itís called the pr knot?   
    Iíve had some surprises in the testing department as some knots will seem nearly to Max in the strain ,and using a ratcheting puller when left for a half hour, kapok.    The failure occurred.    😾
    Maybe my expert friend knows why?   🤔

 Not an expert, but I can pretend on the Internet  Smiley

I think you  are seeing the effect of creep, a common problem with plastics under stress.  When you stretch a plastic within it's elasticity limits and release it, It will mostly return to the original shape, but some of the shape change is permanent (deformation).  This deformation occurs as a function of both load and time. How long you are pulling matters too, just not how hard.

I would guess that a knot like the Pena, which has  sharp bends with the braid crossing might be more quickly damaged by creep, as the load is very concentrated, causing the mono bends to creep, especially  around the braid.
 
 Also a reminder that different knots have different lifespans under load,  especially with something as "creepy" as mono.

The come-along test is a good idea.  Especially after a soak.
Logged
Brewcrafter
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 645


« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2021, 01:38:47 AM »

Jurelometer is wise - I have two thoughts to throw into the stew:
1 - Stretch is going to be a factor.  Hopefully as The Boss builds his knot tester, maybe also include a scale to measure stretch - when knot strength (the scale) is not diminishing but the length from "A to B" is increasing?  When are we pushing the limits of line as opposed to the connection.
2.  Knot glues.  I use them, but in NO way, think they increase the strength of the knot.  If the connection is good, it's good, if it's not then anything you add to it is only a band aid.  I use the UV coatings as a "hard shell finish" over the knot.  Something to help it though the guides and provide smooth transfer and help prevent the knot from being abraided, and kind of give it a "hard shell finish".  Just my $.02 - john
Logged
jurelometer
Sensei
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 834


« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2021, 03:48:11 AM »

Jurelometer is wise - I have two thoughts to throw into the stew:
1 - Stretch is going to be a factor.  Hopefully as The Boss builds his knot tester, maybe also include a scale to measure stretch - when knot strength (the scale) is not diminishing but the length from "A to B" is increasing?  When are we pushing the limits of line as opposed to the connection.
2.  Knot glues.  I use them, but in NO way, think they increase the strength of the knot.  If the connection is good, it's good, if it's not then anything you add to it is only a band aid.  I use the UV coatings as a "hard shell finish" over the knot.  Something to help it though the guides and provide smooth transfer and help prevent the knot from being abraided, and kind of give it a "hard shell finish".  Just my $.02 - john


Not so much wise as opinionated Smiley

1.  I don't see how much stretch matters as long as you are measuring breaking strength. All we care  about in the end is if the line or knot breaks, and if stretch is a contributor, we will pick it up in the breakage measurement. 

Testing how much time under load that it took to weaken a long lived knot (like a braid to mono splice), would seem to be a very useful thing to know for those tuna guys.  Test a few to breakage, hold a few under big tuna load (30 lb or whatever) for a couple hours, and then test to breakage, and so on.

2.  The problems with CA glue on knots is that CA glue rapidly loses adhesive strength when exposed to water, does not adhere to nylon well, and does not adhere to polyethylene at all. 

So what you are actually doing by gluing a knot is wedging chucks of whatever the filler is in the glue into  any gaps in between the lines and fibers. This is making the knot more rigid, which might help it
hold by jamming up the works, or might make it weaker by keeping coils from cinching, or a bit of both. Over (not much) time as the lines stretch and the knot gets wet, the chunks of solidified glue are going to break off from each other and start falling out.

There are some high tech CA blends that will last longer in a wet environment, but they are more of a pain to manage in terms of storage, shelf life, or application.  Some are only available in reliable condition from industrial suppliers. And then you still are just delaying the inevitable a bit.  I would be VERY surprised if any of the CA glues sold as "fishing knot glue" was the good stuff.  My bet would be on the more stable general purpose supermarket stuff.

So I agree with you.  The way I see it, if you tie a good knot, you do not need to glue it.  If you glue it, you don't know what the glues is doing and how long it will last.   Last time I trashed gluing knots- the pro glue crowd gave me a rough time Smiley

Hard coatings can help keep weeds off the knot and pass through guides better, but if the line is soft (like braid), the line can hinge and fray at the edge of the glob, especially when  casting.   Us fly guys use a soft glue like aquaseal or pliobond for coating nail knots on the fly lines.  But those have (or used to have) some nasty solvents that may weaken regular braid or mono.   There are soft UV urethane resins that I use for fly tying.  I have meant to try as a knot coating, but haven't yet.

 UV resin will only cure where the light can reach. If any gets inside the braid, these spots will stay liquefied, and the urethane will act more like a lubricant than a glue. 
Logged
Brewcrafter
Member
*
Online Online

Posts: 645


« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2021, 06:04:21 AM »

Thanks Dave!  Appreciate the insight!  I do need a little bit of direction in the area of adhesives however.  I am familiar with CA - it is the super adhesive that is remarkably good at instantly bonding skin but has it's limitations in the "real world" when you want to bond something that is not skin.  To be honest the adhesive I use for knots I have no idea what it is; only that it cures with UV, and it also gets very exothermic as it's curing.  As I was first playing with it and getting used to it I learned it begins to set almost immediately in direct sunlight, almost to the point that as you are dispensing the adhesive it immediately becomes small hard beads that will not adhere to anything.  But when away from UV, it maintains its watery state, and is not particularly "sticky" until exposed to UV.  I suspect the compounds are similar to when I was at the pediatric dentist with my kids, and they would do fillings and then use a UV light to set them. - john
Logged
philaroman
Photo Group
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 1695


« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2021, 06:48:09 AM »

...UV resin will only cure where the light can reach. If any gets inside the braid, these spots will stay liquefied, and the urethane will act more like a lubricant than a glue. 

was thinking along those lines...  would UV Wader Repair be thicker than knot glue
& more likely to encase the knot, rather than penetrate beyond sunlight & remain liquid?
Logged
jurelometer
Sensei
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 834


« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2021, 07:02:33 AM »

Thanks Dave!  Appreciate the insight!  I do need a little bit of direction in the area of adhesives however.  I am familiar with CA - it is the super adhesive that is remarkably good at instantly bonding skin but has it's limitations in the "real world" when you want to bond something that is not skin.  To be honest the adhesive I use for knots I have no idea what it is; only that it cures with UV, and it also gets very exothermic as it's curing.  As I was first playing with it and getting used to it I learned it begins to set almost immediately in direct sunlight, almost to the point that as you are dispensing the adhesive it immediately becomes small hard beads that will not adhere to anything.  But when away from UV, it maintains its watery state, and is not particularly "sticky" until exposed to UV.  I suspect the compounds are similar to when I was at the pediatric dentist with my kids, and they would do fillings and then use a UV light to set them. - john

I heard the same thing.  From what I read, the first UV coatings for fly tying came from somebody's  dental connection.   Since anything that blocks UV light prevents curing, I hesitate to call the stuff an adhesive.  It can only bond what light can reach.  I see videos  from fly tiers who should know better trying to glue flies with the stuff.

The nice thing about  urethane UV coatings is that most are very resistant to UV degradation/yellowing.  The newer products are better, and most of the first wave products are not around any more.

The UV knot coating that I am familar with is Loon's Knot Sense.   Not bad stuff, but I don't have a use for it.  In addition to being too hard, I think that it turns nail knots (using mono) into hard sleeves that loose their grip over time as the fly line stretches and loses some diameter.

YMMV

There are a ton of different CA adhesives - that work on a variety of materials, but like all the fancy stuff, it has to be stored, prepped and applied correctly.

...UV resin will only cure where the light can reach. If any gets inside the braid, these spots will stay liquefied, and the urethane will act more like a lubricant than a glue. 

was thinking along those lines...  would UV Wader Repair be thicker than knot glue
& more likely to encase the knot, rather than penetrate beyond sunlight & remain liquid?


I guess, but it would just be a matter of degree.  I would guess that a 100% mono knot allows enough UV light to fire off a full cure, but a dyed fiber acts like a shield.  Same reason why you have to swirl the water with a UV sterilizer pen.  The UV light can miss bacteria or virus in the shadowss of micro particles.

Some amount of gel is going to wick into the gaps and not be cured. Dunno if it will matter or not, probably depends on the knot.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.09 seconds with 20 queries.