Raw graphite blanks: coatings, etc?

Started by JasonGotaProblem, February 17, 2021, 06:52:17 PM

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Rivverrat

#45
    I'm not cutting a new path here. I believe locating & building on the spine is the best way to go about things. That said, I have two rods that are built opposite the spine. One was the first rod build I did it is a St.Croix Classic Cat 8' S glass / SC11 Graphite blank rated 15 -60 / 1-8 oz. At the time I didn't know any better. Rod gets used in some fashion several times through out any given week & is well over 10 years old.

 The other rod a 8' UC Challenger Elite that I intentionally wrapped opposite the spine. I forgot to mention this yesterday.  A few fellas here witnessed me during our zoom call pluck 10, 15 & 20 lbs. off the floor with it. This rod has pulled 25 lbs. off of the floor.  I bounced the rod with 20 lbs in the air. I have done this numerous times ( to many times to count ) showing others the abuse these rods are capable of handling.

If you dont know, lifting weight from the floor is entirely a different level of stress on a rod than fighting a fish thas out in front of you. This is why there are specific rod blanks for doing such things. This rod isnt one of them.

   The rod is acid wrapped with 7 single foot guides below the tip. This rod has brought to bank & boat many fish over 50 lbs... Jeff

JasonGotaProblem

This has been a great thread. Even though this is my first real build I don't feel like I'm going in completely blind because of all that I've read here. You all have helped me tremendously.

And Alex, your thread may not have hit your goal of rivaling the 'luck' thread for post count, it may rival for word count. That was a very information-dense thread. I enjoyed it the first time I read it (as it happened, in fact I posted twice in there while that thread was built) at that point it was merely a curiosity, as rod building didn't seem like it was anywhere on the radar at the time, now on the second pass I realize there's solid gold info in there.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

steelfish

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 22, 2021, 03:56:33 PM
............now on the second pass I realize there's solid gold info in there.

that had happened to me many times with different threads on this forum.
The Baja Guy

alantani

send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

steelfish

#49
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 06:07:38 AM
    The rod is acid wrapped with 7 single foot guides below the tip. This rod has brought to bank & boat many fish over 50 lbs... Jeff

I would like to see a pic of that rod, I was into thinking that all saltwater rod MUST have double feet guides even light inshore rods, Im about to build a light inshore rod with a blank of an un-know brand (yep, the same that I broke on a extreme static test) and THIS time I would like to build it with single foot guides in all the running guides at the bottom and build it on Acid wrap, just like you said it.
The Baja Guy

JasonGotaProblem

#50
Quote from: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 08:42:27 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 06:07:38 AM
    The rod is acid wrapped with 7 single foot guides below the tip. This rod has brought to bank & boat many fish over 50 lbs... Jeff

I would like to see a pic of that rod, I was into thinking that all saltwater rod MUST have double feet guides even light inshore rods, Im about to build a light inshore rod with a blank of an un-know brand (yep, the same that I broke on a extreme static test) and THIS time I would like to build it with single foot guides in all the running guides at the bottom and build it on Acid wrap, just like you said it.
Man I've been considering taking all my rods with double foot guides and swapping for single foot, with the exception of the lowest/largest as that's the one that sees the most abuse-potential from non-fish things (railings, etc). I'm not convinced a double foot guide is needed for anything but the heaviest fish unless the rod sees a lot of non fishing abuse. Just my opinion. To my understanding, double footers rob power from the blank.

Also! First stickied thread! Woohoo!
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

jurelometer

There are some newer single foot frames with wider notched feet. These  allow  you to  run  a very small ring size wiih heavier loads than before.  In turn,  this makes it possible to run single foot guides on larger rods.

The downside for single foot guides includes:

1.  Load on the  guides has a lever effect that can work the guides loose over time.  This can be mitigated somewhat by adding more guides, positioning more carefully, etc.

2.  More susceptible to slack line wrapping tangles around the guides, especially with braid.

3.  More susceptible to pull out from trying to pass a knot or a tangle.

4.  More snaggy/grabby.  Single foot guides  tangle more easily with other rods and the miscellaneous gear that ends up strewn about on a small boat on a hot bite.

5. More easily damaged.  You can accidentally step on a double foot guide and might not break anything.  Double foot guides also shield the ceramic rings from  impacts better.

The advantage of single foot guides is a bit less weight and blank dampening (and half the time wrapping guide feet  :) ).  The  lighter and bendier the rod, the more that this might make a useful difference.  Most people could benefit more by simply going easy on the epoxy that is typical lathered on. 

Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an envitpronment.

This is not to say that single foot guides are always worse or that some of the negatives can be mitigated with a quality build, but rather that there is no free lunch.  You are  making a tradeoff. My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.

-J

steelfish

Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an envitpronment.
-J

yep, Panga environment is totally different to ride on a nice sporty fishing boat, actually on saltwater when you catch a nice fish you normally forget about your gear and just put the rod aside without worries and pay attention on the fish, that doesnt sound as nice future for a light single foot wrapped rod I know, well, thanks for remained me that compa J.

I actually re-wrapped a 7ft surf spinning rod for bait fishing or light cast lures and used double feet guides with Ti frame to keep it on the light weight side but with the protection of the double foot with thick wire frame and my main reason was the intended use for that rod was going be on a Panga boat 90% of the time.




Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
... My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.
-J

I dont blame you, when I "introduced" 5 years ago (nobody have seen them before) to local charter captains the TW twisted guides from PacBay and they used them for some time I got many re-wrapping jobs on orders to change the factory regular welded wire guides for those TW twisted guides, yep, because they hold better the harsh treatment of customers on the harsh environment of the Panga.

The Baja Guy

Rivverrat

#53
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM

.... Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an environment.

This is not to say that single foot guides are always worse or that some of the negatives can be mitigated with a quality build, but rather that there is no free lunch.  You are  making a tradeoff. My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.

-J


   Agreed, single foot guides are absolutely not the answer for every rod.  I was not in any way putting this out as The Way to do things. Which I hoped would be obvious. I would be reluctant to wrap a fast taper rod like a Challenger Platinum or TileFish with single foot guides.

Single foot guides come into play for a conventional reel & rod, when the ultimate in lite weight & best action & distance is what's wanted. They are not what one would use when those around
you have a belly full of beer or bourbon.

With all this said I am working with a couple of the industries insiders to help develop a better single foot guide. My thoughts are the plusses of using a single foot guide with an acid wrapped conventional rod are to many to ignore. We aint there yet... Jeff

jurelometer

Quote from: steelfish on February 22, 2021, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on February 21, 2021, 09:13:42 PM
How should I more safely test it then? I just don't wanna dedicate the time to building it if there's some structural shortcoming that makes it break on the first big fish.

[...] please read this thread were I post that I broke my 1st blank doing those same kind of "destructive tests" LOL, I got a lot of good tips and recomendations from the more seasoned rodbuilders here, so it worth to grab a cup of coffee and read the entire thread.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32120.0


While we are at it, here are two other threads that go deep into

Guide placement tchniques: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30033.0

Guide selection: https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30337.0

Long reads, but I think both are worthwhile, as many of the common questions are discussed. We are  lucky to have a blend of skilled custom builders and home builders that make rods for a wide variety of fisheries.

-J

thrasher

#55
Quote3.  More susceptible to pull out from trying to pass a knot or a tangle.
Did those guides have a fordham lock wrap?

Quote5. More easily damaged.  You can accidentally step on a double foot guide and might not break anything.  Double foot guides also shield the ceramic rings from  impacts better.
I have only lost ceramic inserts on double feet guides, the single foot guides I have been able to bend back into shape but the insert was intact. I could be lucky here though

Rivverrat

 

     @thrasher,  I did not use any locking wrap. I dont believe it's needed. If one does not prep the guide foot properly or pack & wrap well then a benefit can be seen. I will admit the risk of a guide popping is of course higher than using a double foot.

   Great observation on the insert staying in place when guide is bent or abused, when considering single vs double footed guides. A single foot will in some cases maintain the ring insert much better when abused... Jeff

thrasher

#57
Jeff, I don't use locking wraps on single foots guides either mainly because I do a full glass and at least two coats(I'm not worried about added weight to the rod  ;D) I actually love the idea of a acid wrap with SFG's on the bottom like Alex suggested, especially on a light weight rod!



jurelometer

Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 10:09:13 PM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2021, 09:47:14 PM

.... Alex:  I  personally would not use single foot guides for a rod intended to be fished on  a panga.  Just too harsh an environment.

This is not to say that single foot guides are always worse or that some of the negatives can be mitigated with a quality build, but rather that there is no free lunch.  You are  making a tradeoff. My personal bias is always toward durability.   YMMV.

-J


   Agreed, single foot guides are absolutely not the answer for every rod.  I was not in any way putting this out as The Way to do things. Which I hoped would be obvious. I would be reluctant to wrap a fast taper rod like a Challenger Platinum or TileFish with single foot guides.

Single foot guides come into play for a conventional reel rod, when the ultimate in lite weight & best action is what's wanted. They are not what one would use when those around you have a belly full of beer or bourbon... Jeff

Not  the booze.  Panga fishing is rough on gear.  Open water, open boat, lots of pounding,banging and crashing.  Plus in some places they are still launching an and landing on the beach.  I personally prefer not to mix alcohol with fishing.

And sorry, I did not mean to infer that you were over-advocating single footers.    Just that I see as they become more popular, more fishermen are looking for them without being aware of the tradeoffs.

Quote from: Rivverrat on February 22, 2021, 10:45:23 PM
 

     @thrasher,  I did not use any locking wrap. I dont believe it's needed. If one does not prep the guide foot properly or pack & wrap well then a benefit can be seen. I will admit the risk of a guide popping is of course higher than using a double foot.

   Great observation on the insert staying in place when guide is bent or abused, when considering single vs double footed guides. A single foot will in some cases maintain the ring insert much better when abused... Jeff

Hmmm,   I could see that.   With  a single foot, the  frame legs flex, but with a double foot,  the top half of the ring flexes and the bottom half doesn't, placing the load on the insert.  Modern inserts don't pop out much any more without breaking first, but this doesn't change the issue.  The larger the ring, the more likely this is to happen.    A forged, one piece, two foot  frame  modern running guide (small ring diameter) is not going to flex at all, so I would still rather step on one of these than a single footer, but you both have convinced me that it is not as cut-and-dry as I originally presented it.

-J

Rivverrat

 
   J. your fine. I was agreeing with you regarding your reply to Alex.  The beer & bourbon was just another scenario among many that single foot guides just might not be the best choice... Jeff