alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Flouro carbon line
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Author Topic: Flouro carbon line  (Read 1252 times)
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Ron Jones
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2021, 11:53:50 PM »

From Segur:
FACT: Yes, fluorocarbon lines and leaders do stretch, but not as much as mono. Line typically has more stretch than leader. All Seaguar lines and leaders provide the optimum amount of shock impact/stretch.
https://seaguar.com/applications/myths

While I do not have a percentage of stretch, I can state with authority that fluorocarbon lines provide increased sensitivity, which help immensely with soft takers such as coho from the estuary. For those applications I am sold.

Mark does this way more than I ever will (like, he probably fished more long range days this year than I will in my lifetime,) and he doesn't use floro for yellowtail, so I recommend you follow his advise. I'm happy with my method.

The Man
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Ronald Jones
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jurelometer
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2021, 01:10:32 AM »

I know that it shouldn’t bother me, but it does:  Monofilament  means single filament.  We are comparing nylon vs. fluorocarbon monofilament lines.  OK.  I feel better know.

Both can be made with varying amounts of stretch and hardness.  And also different  diameter to breaking strength ratios.  There is  wide variability in the manufacturing processes, and the mechanical properties of the base materials themselves are  relatively close.

When soaked in water for awhile, the base materials have about the same breaking strength to diameter ratio.  Nylon will tend to be limper.  Both have the similar  maximum elongation (stretch at failure),  but fluoro  resists stretching at lower loads, where nylon stretches more evenly across the load spectrum. 

But once they start messing with recipe, especially making copolymers,  and then muck with manufacturing practices such as how the fiber is  pre stretched and then tempered, the properties can change so much that there is plenty of overlap possible between fluoro and nylon in terms of hardness, stretch and breaking strength to diameter ratio.

Some of my favorite bite tippet materials for fly fishing was the specialized hard nylon. I think I that it is more abrasion resistant than the fluoro leader products that have mostly replaced it.  The most extreme stuff was Mason hard nylon. That stuff was so stiff that it was sort of like fishing with wire.  The larger diameters had to be stretched/ straightened in advance.  Don’t know if that stuff is made any more.  It was kinda overkill. Still use it for making weed guards on flies.

-J
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jurelometer
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2021, 01:55:59 AM »

From Segur:
FACT: Yes, fluorocarbon lines and leaders do stretch, but not as much as mono. Line typically has more stretch than leader. All Seaguar lines and leaders provide the optimum amount of shock impact/stretch.
https://seaguar.com/applications/myths

While I do not have a percentage of stretch, I can state with authority that fluorocarbon lines provide increased sensitivity, which help immensely with soft takers such as coho from the estuary. For those applications I am sold.

Mark does this way more than I ever will (like, he probably fished more long range days this year than I will in my lifetime,) and he doesn't use floro for yellowtail, so I recommend you follow his advise. I'm happy with my method.

The Man

Sorry.  I am just to jaded at this point.  I don’t take anything a tackle manufacturer tells me at face value.

When  a line company claims that Fluoro has less stretch, I am guessing that they are referring mostly to less stretch at  the low end of  the load spectrum.  It is the lack of stretch at lower load levels that is more important to sensitivity anyways.   Normally, this stuff is easy to figure out by looking up the base material properties, but fluoro and monofilament line properties get modified a lot by the manufacturing process.

My opinion is that if you are interested in sensitivity, main line diameter  can be more important than stretch.  More diameter leads to more bow in the line, which  has the same effect on sensitivity as stretch does.  While more of a pain to rig, thin braid to a short stretchy mono leader is going to be more sensitive than a reel loaded with low stretch mono for many  situations.

-J
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philaroman
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2021, 04:34:36 AM »

kinda' sorta' my point
for my light F/W applications, pre-stretched nylon tinted correctly for specific location
is same or slightly better than clear fluoro, for stealth/strength/sensitivity
...and that's EXCLUDING PRICE CONSIDERATIONS!!!

at roughly same price-point, I'm comparing fluoro running line to dedicated nylon leader/tippet,
so nylon wins, unless I want some section of my line to sink faster or hang out in the sun longer

finally, what the heck is "abrasion"?  can someone please delineate?  Grin
is rubbing on concrete/sandstone same as smooth granite?
If I'm over muscle beds, shouldn't I forget abrasions & worry about lacerations  Roll Eyes
as far as I gather abrasion comparrisons are between lines of same alleged strength -- WHY???  Huh?
if 10# fluoro running line & 14# nylon tippet are about same diameter AND same price,
then THAT is what I want compared for nick/cut/scuff-resistance

OK...  I like fluoro for the 2 qualities that are scientifically indesputable:
better sink-rate & UV resistance...  everything else is conjecture/hype  Wink Wink Wink

Um, no.
Floro does not possess the stretch of typical monofilament. That is not hype. It is also harder for ME to see in the water, and it is a scientific fact that we have better eyesight than fish.

The sink rate is nice though.

The Man

not gonna use "typical" running line and you can't make me  Tongue
if fish are are line-shy, how do you know they are specifically seeing it w/ eyes,
rather than detecting the disturbance/vibrations in the water column
(w/ lateral line, barbels, skull chambers, whatever)
methinks, on many occasions, thinner means more than less visible
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2021, 06:19:59 AM »

Yeah, every manufacturer will have their song and dance.  Are fishing tackle manufacturers worse are than other industries?  I'll have to think about that one.

I'm not a Berkley fan, but here's their marketing:
https://www.berkley-fishing.com/pages/berkley-ae-why-use-fluorocarbon

What is abrasion resistance?  That's when something is eroded by scraping against a surface.  It should be easy enough to test.  I wish it was tested by guys in white lab coats with shiny instruments with a lot of gauges and stuff.  This guy with a piece of sandpaper and a box is what I found first:

"Shocking results"
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2021, 03:18:16 PM »

Not shocked at all, I've observed this abrasion resistance difference in actual fishing. The fluoro leaders get all stringy and rough from toothy fishes and structure much more than mono, and need changing out frequently.   However, I still go with the fluoro (leaders) as the end result is still higher catch ratio. For main line, I never use fluoro, too stiff (and expensive).
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2021, 03:26:14 PM »

Fluoro isn't some miracle line even though it's priced like it is! Personally, I never use fluoro when fishing YT or when the fish are aggressive.  There's no need... they don't have teeth and aren't shy!  I do use fluoro when fishing for BFT since they tend to be finicky and have teeth and I do feel I get more bites with fluoro leaders than with straight mono. YMMV.
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2021, 08:20:18 PM »

I'm spoiled on flouro for it's sensitivity. Doing jigging most of the time, detecting bites and also feeling the bottom is paramount to keeping my lure in the strike zone.

It does tend to hold knots better but I'm not really sold on abrasion resitence. Rocks vs line is a losing battle no matter what material is used.
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Ron Jones
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« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2021, 10:17:33 PM »

Concerning the jargon, I use this approach:

I type on this forum the way I speak on a long range trip or on the shore of a bay, none of us are wearing lab coats (except J, I am convinced that J wears a lab coat just to ensure he can tell people they are wrong when they say none of us wear lab coats Smiley). I am certain that if Lee, Tom, Jimmer et all were sitting on the SOA we would, without a doubt, understand exactly what was meant by floro, mono, dacron and braid. We are using a common symbol set, communication is occuring, perhaps far more relevant communication than differentiating between the TYPES of monofilament.

Abrasion is the exact same thing. The word abrasion, in the parlance addressed above, means something like "less likely to let you get rocked by a YT." To be clear, we have ZERO SCIENTIFIC DATA backing that up, and we are happy about that. Us using line with higher abrasion resistance increases our individual confidence in our particular equipment; and at the end of the day, that is WAY more important to fishing success than anything you are going to learn in a peer reviewed journal.

To be clear, I read peer reviewed journals for entertainment, but not about fishing. This is about eating and having fun.

The Man
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Ronald Jones
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2021, 12:51:05 AM »

Guys elsewhere are chiming in about the improved abrasion resistance of mono over floro.  My floro leaders get chaffed within the first half hour.  So, the other day, I tried a mono leader for the first time in ages.  Nope, I could feel the stretch and loss of sensitivity.  Back to floro.
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2021, 01:41:13 AM »

Sigh….

In some cases using imprecise language matters, in some cases it doesn’t.   It is actually important in this case that the nylon and fluoro  are both monofilaments.  And in this case it is not rocket surgery-white coat stuff.

Abrasion resistance:  For  monofilaments,   abrasion  resistance is a function of diameter and hardness - more is better for both.  So if you want to determine abrasion resistance, this should be the guide, not whether it is fluoro or nylon.  Note that for nylon hardness  is reduced a bit as  moisture content increases, so you have to make sure that the nylon has been soaked for about 10 minutes or so to get a fair comparison.  

Not too difficult to find diameter.  There are standard methods for measuring the hardness.  Line makers don’t seem to want to tell us what the hardness is.  Mebbe they don’t want us to make informed decisions that get in the way of profit margin or market share?  

Everybody gets to enjoy their fishing however they want.  Believing stuff that you want to believe, whether it is lucky hats, unlucky bananas, or fishing line with “magical” properties is part of the fun for some folk. Don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade.

-J
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 02:33:47 AM by jurelometer » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2021, 06:34:16 AM »

Dave - I have been known to drink the manufacturer Kool-Aid.  A Little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...
Love nylon mono.  Grew up with it.  Still use the daylights out of my Ande and Stren.  But (for better or worse) I have always considered mono line to indeed be one single filament, and to be homogenous - consistent in its composition throughout the cross section. I might be naive here.  And if it gets nicked or frayed (or "abraided"  Cheesy) that you are now living on borrowed time, since you have now created a flaw in the cross section.
With the modern flouro blends, I have been led to believe (see my reference to Kool-Aid above) that the flouro manufacturers (Okay, I am going to drop all pretense and say THE flouro manufacturer...this from a Fred Hall visit) that this single extruded filament can be made with varying properties across the cross section of the line.  For example the outer circumference can be of a harder, less forgiving (or knot friendly) character while the center core can have slightly different properties, all extruded into one single filament.  Or likewise something that is softer, limper, and more knot friendly.  Again, this may be the Kool Aid talking.  In my mind "limp with great knot strength" says a "softer" outer layer and something that is more "abrasion resistant" will have something where the outer layer may be harder and have a higher durometer than say the center of the filament. - john
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jurelometer
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2021, 11:06:15 PM »

Yeah, but…

Monofilament means a single filament.  It does not mean that it is a single raw material, or that the filament is not coated. The line makers are trying to make a distinction that does not exist between fluoro and “mono”  because  a more accurate description does not help justify the pricing.

They make both nylon and fluoro in the hard shell/soft core style, often  incorrectly marketed as copolymer.  Back in my trolling days, I really liked the Jinkai nylon leader because it had a hard coating to make durable, but was still knotable in high tests, so no crimps needed.


A polymer is a repeating chain of  the same molecule, over and over.  A copolymer is the same deal, but has two or more different molecules repeating in the chain.

These coated lines may be made from copolymers, but are not copolymers by virtue of different materials used for the core vs the coating.  But it makes for  better marketing to call them copolymers instead of coated. 

Softness and elasticity both contribute to ease of knotting.  Nylon and fluoro have overlapping ranges for these  properties,  so it depends on which two lines you are comparing  .  But fluoro  is not as elastic at lower loads, generally making it harder to knot compared to nylon of the same hardness.

I remember reading somewhere that fluoro is more likely to fracture.  Nylon is definitely more likely to creep (permanently deforming to a smaller  diameter from being stretched in a knot) , so it is not clear to me which material will tend to hold up longer in knots.  I have seen that fluoro loop knots break at the loop (not the knot) from the shock of repeated casting (a heavy saltwater fly)  much sooner than nylon.

Sensitivity is a more complicated subject. We are concerned with mechanical motion ( fish pulls on one end of the line) and vibration (lure bounces off a rock or tapped by a fish).   When dealing with short sections like leaders, there probably is no real difference, as the main line will be be the controlling factor.   With casting lures shorter distances  in calm/shallow water,   elasticity is probably the deal breaker (more elasticity = less sensitivity).   Once longer distances, depth and/or current come into play, line diameter matters more, especially for vibration, as friction along and across the line dampens the response.

For the type of fishing that Steve is doing, less stretch is going to be more sensitive, but a low stretch nylon might be an alternative to fluoro.

If I am vertical jigging, I care about mainline diameter, mainline diameter and mainline diameter, and then maybe a tiny  bit about mainline stretch.  The most sensitive setup is going to be the thinnest braid all the way to the lure.  If I want a a leader, shorter is better. Long large diameter  fluoro or nylon monofilament leaders can mess with drop action if the jig is light enough.

Or something like that.
 -J
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