Welded rings/ Split rings

Started by gstours, November 11, 2021, 01:07:36 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gstours

 Another personal choice when jig fishing is when to use split rings and welded(soldered) rings.   As split rings come in a lot of sizes and can be added or changed out on the boat or on the beach,  welded ones are permenant until broked or cut off.
  Both have some advantages and disadvantages .    Large split rings can be a pain to change or add especially to large hooks with a fairly thick wire eye.   
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/p660/gst6814/GOPR1832_Moment(3).jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

   Ive seen a few failures with welded rings,  and with split rings.    I do my own soldering on my welded rings and that was a learning thing.
       Like knots we like to pride ourselfs with being darn good. 8)  Even now i dont pull test with a scale most that "look good"  and its easier sometimes to cut a suspect ring off and redo it.

  The above link is to a picture of a very suprised camper on a boat i was on with a failure.   A good fish is gone,  as is the jig. >:(
Anybody else had failures?   Any ideas to advize us on?     Thanks  gst.

alantani

when it really matters (like for bluefin), i use a 400 pound split ring that is braised with silver solder 56. 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

gstours

Yes Alan this would be the "ultimate connection ".  What is the solder you mentioned?   Got to know?🎣
   Even though testing will show us what we got every one likes the easy way out,   Until we get burned.🤬

Alan Matsuno

I used to use Silv Solder 56, with butane, but I knew some who used propane.

I would expect to pay $100 for the solder, available at welding shops, maybe not at hardware stores.  Do not forget the flux.

Rings were from Rosco, a bag of rings was about $5-10, probably 1,000 rings in a bag,depending on the size.

Maybe Alan Tani saw my workstation at FW.


Brewcrafter

I will have to look around, I posted some photos somewhere of a "re-ringing" I did based on plenty of support and advice from Alan and Brian.  Necessities - Good Silv Solv and good flux - and a slamming heat source.  I have used MAPP on my propane torch with great success, but fortunately in my fishing buddies line of work (refrigeration) he has a nice small acetylene torch that throws a pinpoint flame for brazing tubing. 
I have seen rings break a couple of times - but if you look through all of your jigs how many of us have one where the joint on the ring may look a little iffy from corrosion on the joint but you don't think about it?
But top honors for one of the wildest failures that I have ever seen (was not there, but he showed us all the aftermath on our weekend Zoom) was Bill on this years SOA trip that reeled in his unmolested ring with a perfect knot.  And the jig was gone.  Probably never see that again in my life. - john

Bill B

Yeah that was me.....I had a decent fish on the line then bang, the line pops and goes slack. Reeled in the line thinking I broke at the knot again (I just retied after breaking off an iron at the knot).  To my surprise the knot was good, still attached to the ring, butt the rest of the chromed Salas iron was missing.  I will post a photo when I get up to the shop.

Bill
It may not be very productive,
but it's sure going to be interesting!

Keta

#6
I had a ring split on a ringed 2/0 Owner Flyliner with less than 12# of drag on the last trip.  


My soldered rings do not fail.


Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

PacRat

Lee,
What silver-solder are you using?

Keta

I can not remember but it has a high silver content.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

jurelometer

On solid vs split rings:

Split rings are more useful if you need to  re-rig  while fishing.  With vertical jigs, if you rig with top hooks only, you can have a setup where the assist hook(s) are attached to the main line with a solid ring, and the jig is attached to the solid ring via a split ring.  You won't lose a fish to a split ring failure, but you might still lose the jig, especially for jumping/ head shaking species.

Other than for ease of re-rigging, I think that solid rings are always a better choice.  Much lighter, and better for the lure action than split rings of the same strength.  Only problem is that the smaller the ring, the harder it is to get a good soldered joint, so there is a practical minimum size around 1/8 inch ID ring, 0.040 in diameter wire, at least for my setup and abilities.

If you are making the lure/mold from scratch,  pre-made solid rings (not brazed) can also be an option in some situations.




On soldering solid rings:

I just started soldering my own rings about a year before the big shutdown, so most of my testing has been at the bench and not in the field.  If I get halfway decent flow, and enough solder to fully cover the joint, I can bend the ring halfway to a pretzel, and the joint will hold, in addition to passing the pull test.    If I could do nice clean welds like Lee does, I would be more confident.   But here is what I have learned so far:

Don't  have to buy solder in $100 batches.  Steve turned me on to Rio Grande:

https://www.riogrande.com/category/tools-and-equipment/soldering-and-welding/solder/silver?c=5309ef87-2ac4-44c2-a408-a7b80157ff02#t=products&sort=relevancy&layout=card&numberOfResults=36&f:categoryfilter=%5BTools%20%26%20Equipment,Soldering%20%26%20Welding,Solder,Silver%5D

You can buy by the foot from 54 to 80% silver in a couple different gauges.   The thinner gauges are useful for smaller rings.  I bought  a couple different levels of silver content, and didn't find any to be easier to solder than the other, or to be stronger when bench testing.  But I am a worse-than-terrible welder.   Rio Grande shipping was not cheap, but it still turned out to be a better deal than the other options that I could find. 

Since I am ringing  lures of many sizes, I find it easier to make my own rings as needed by coiling tempered 316L wire around an old bolt, and slicing along the bolt with a dremel style thin cutoff wheel.  I have the wire around already for making the lures.  Cheapest source for the wire is straight welding rod, but the size choices are limited.

The kits can be an economical choice if you are not ringing lots of jigs/hooks, and the variety of sizes match your needs.   I also use  a decent inexpensive  butane mini torch.  It has a nice small flame and gets the ring  plenty hot plenty quick.  Big rings are much easier to solder than small ones. A propane or mapp gas torch would  work fine if you have a pro setup for detailed brazing, not the torch for soldering plumbing that you get from the hardware store.

The smaller the flame, the better.  You don't want to fry the jig's paint job, or mess with the temper of the hook.  Stiffer wire from the original tempering also helps the ring hold its shape which should put less stress on the soldered joint.

-J

Bill B

As promised here is a picture of a ring minus the iron.....notice the "expertly" tied San Diego Jam knot 😆😆😆. You know your brazing skills are top notch when the iron fails before the joint.....of course I didn't do the brazing....Bill
It may not be very productive,
but it's sure going to be interesting!

gstours

Thanks for the feedback and additional information.    I agree that larger rings are easier to solder, and generally stronger butt need more heat in my experience.   Flux is important too.   ive used several butane torches and while handy and small, may lack the btus to do the larger rings.
  I,m going to try mapp gas, and try this for heat source.    Ive had good test results with silicone bronze wire in 1/16 ans 3/32'' weld stick electrode.   Testing a butt weld with a ratcheting strain throuh a spring scale........
  That said.  split rings are usually round and can not be spread very easily to accomidate wide entrys.   Solid rings can be made from several types of material and can be custom made for almost any application.   Butt you have to do the soldering and testing afterwards.
  if you dont test with an expected strain you don,t really know.   Life is short,  dont be disappointed. ??? >:(

Keta

#12
Oxy-acetylene will do the job.  

I have deformed thinner wire rings without breaking the joint but with more load than my 175# spring scale can read. The ring in the photo below is a Rosco #5 (0.057") under 175# of load.  For reference 1/16"=0.0625".  The one in the photo above with the deformed hook is a Rosco #2 (0.032"), under a 175# load.

Here's my "test bench".  Two vehicles, 5/16" hi test chain, a cable come-a-long and a 175# spring scale.





Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Brewcrafter

Lee doesn't mess around!  Honestly getting a good joint on new rings was not overly difficult (again, good controlled heat, quality flux, and good SilvSolv solder).  To be honest, cutting/breaking the old rings (we were changing out hooks) really requires a small set of bolt cutters; home hardware style diagonal wire cutters will wear you (and the tool) out. -john

gstours

Thanks for the pictures Lee. :)     This is about as graffic as can be shown and its your assurance that the connection proved you are on the right track.    My test bench is between a shop doorway and very similar with the measured strain devices.
  Butt my bad for not starting this post with the more possibly correct termanology. >:(    I did mention welding, Butt actually we Solder the rings in order to be correct .
Joining Metals
As opposed to brazing and soldering, which do not melt the base metal, welding is a high heat process which melts the base material. Typically with the addition of a filler material.

Heat at a high temperature causes a weld pool of molten material which cools to form the join, which can be stronger than the parent metal. Pressure can also be used to produce a weld, either alongside the heat or by itself.
And for Soldering its.
Unlike welding, brazing does not involve melting the work pieces. The main difference between brazing and arc welding is the heat source. Brazing is applied via torch, furnace, induction, dipped, or resistance as heat sources occurring at a temperature above 840°F (450°C) whereas arc welding uses electricity as a heat source reaching temperatures of roughly 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Brazing vs. Soldering
The only difference between brazing and soldering is the temperature at which each process takes place. Soldering takes place at a temperature below 840°F (450°C), and brazing occurs at a temperature above 840°F (450°C
  Acetalene torches are capable of melting steel but mapp and propane, handy homeowner butane are not.   
     It would be much more difficult for a welder to weld the small diameter wire we use for rings.   I,m expecting some slack back for my being improper to start with.     ???    On to the next topic related question.
   What percent of the fishing line strength is your terminal tackle expected to withstand?   This is another personal choice.   Many of you have battled large fish and been victorious and I respect your opinions.   thanks.