Science and fiction.

Started by gstours, December 20, 2021, 02:16:36 AM

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gstours

It seems like a question only I might ponder 🤔
    Especially in a sideways world 🌎
       With the equation of the depth C.   and the line diameter being a constant,  will adding weight A be the equivalent of the sum of A & B  if the desired B weight was needed to be a larger number?
  As a parody stated in the earlier paragraph?   
I'm only focusing on keeping the jig down in this question and not jig action and more ideals.
   Seems that water flow resistance and mass may be greater at first thought 💭,    Butt keeping the bow out of the line is my first thought.   (12 is greater than 8).  How much does the water drag around both A and B when compared to a similar size G (which is the sum of A and B).  Just wondering 🤔🎣

Cor

#1
Hahaha, I don't fish like that and I am not a scientist so don't really know.

Just instinctively some thoughts;

A will probably not exert the same amount of downward pull (I think that will be weight) on the line as it would when hanging straight down.   Caused by some lift created from current or the position of B

Two lures of combined weight equal to one single may have a greater surface area and more susceptible to the effects of the current?

The density of the material used will have a significant effect on this, like 5 flat pieces of stainless steel of equal weigh to one pure lead weight will have a much greater current effect.

Is lure B actually sitting on the bottom?    It may then act like an anchor, or reduce the combined weight of the two lures.

I think the effect of the current on the line may well be greater then the effect of the current on the lure(s) obviously depending on the lengths, diameter and type of line.

I am sure our resident scientist will comment  ??? ???::)

I think there are just too many variables in this question.   Sometime we fish using the boats fish finder and can see the target is at say 60 meters below the boat.   It then becomes important to change to a heavier jig to get it down to the fish as soon as possible but you quickly notice that the lure rate of decent slows down as it goes deeper.
Cornelis

jurelometer

#2
I am trying not to take the bait, but cannot help myself :)   My science fanboy opinion:

The problem with answering the OP question as formulated is that it makes it a bit difficult to get to the answer I think we are looking for.  Jigs will generally not drop straight.  They should have some sort of action, and the action will vary based on line tension. You have to look at the action in addition to the density and the resistance as the jig drops.  Jigs not having identical sink rates and synchronized actions will also fight each other, further slowing the drop rate.  I would expect that if both are reasonably close in drop rate and dropping action, the freefall drop rate might end up  slower than the fastest dropping jig, and possibly slower than the slowest dropping jig in the pair.

Getting back to the question as posted: Unlike sliding friction (like in a reel drag) where surface area does not matter,  friction is a fluid is a function of surface area.  More surface area for the same amount of mass by using two jigs with the same combined weight as one big jig starts you out on the wrong track.  But the more line that you let out, the more of the friction is along and across the line, and line friction will eventually become the biggest issue.  Thinner line is the key for deep drops.

Cornelius is on the money IMHO.  Tying multiple jigs in a series is just a faster way to lose more jigs faster while screwing up the action.

There are so many things that will most likely go wrong that the chances of things going right are pretty limited.  For example, assuming the mess reaches bottom. you will be fighting against the resistance to lift the top jig before anything will happen on the bottom jig.  A good way to go  if you don't like much jig action and enjoy getting snags...

Ya neverknow, but I would take a pass.

just my opinion.

-J

Dominick

I didn't understand the question nor the answer.  Then again I get numbers mixed up all the time.   :D ;D  Dominick
Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

Midway Tommy

I'd just use common sense, trial and error to figure that sort of stuff out, and document it for later reference. The heck with equations, calculations and science, they all give me a headache.  ;)  :D
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

oc1

Somebody is going to get a hook in their arm.

gstours

Thanks for your replies,  I know it's a less than ideal question. ???
   Sometimes the inquiring mind is a terrible thing said Wilburs mother to Orville.     :'(

Ron Jones

First:
Thank you J for not letting me down, I had every faith that you would have to respond and you did not let me down.

Second:
Although I've never seen it with these specific jigs, there are lots and lots of fish caught on in line jigs. I'm not certain why we don't think this will work?
The Man
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

jurelometer

Quote from: Ron Jones on December 21, 2021, 11:12:17 PM
First:
Thank you J for not letting me down, I had every faith that you would have to respond and you did not let me down.

Second:
Although I've never seen it with these specific jigs, there are lots and lots of fish caught on in line jigs. I'm not certain why we don't think this will work?
The Man

Glad you are entertained.  In addition to being a science fanboy, jig design has been a hobby of mine for awhile now.  This was right in my wheelhouse.

The original question was about how the combo  would sink, not how well it would fish if/when it made it to depth.

To reiterate on the sinking part, the top jig will help by pulling against line friction on the/sink, but it will hurt when it flutters, darts sideways etc., as it will be sinking slower than the top jig and providing resistance of its own.  Here is a thought experiment:  if you tied the jig to a lead core or weighted line, the jig would not sink any faster unless the lead core got below the jig and pulled it down.

Getting back to your question of whether the combo  would fish better once it got down there:  the top jig is going to add resistance that works against your attempts to lift  the bottom jig.  On the drop, the top jig will arrest the dropping momentum  of the bottom jig at various strengths  and various intervals.  It is possible that  this would make some kind of magic  action on the bottom jig that the fish find irresistible (more likely on the drop than on the lift)   but you are mostly suppressing the a full action of the bottom jig.  The fish get the deciding vote, but I would vote no.

I am assuming that we don't want the top jig to get bit, as it would be hookless.  So the risk of getting bit on the top jig is a downside as well.

I agree that there are times when a tandem setup can work better than a fishing a single lure.  For vertical jigging, you need a heavy jig and  a much lighter  lure (like a fly)  hung above on a short leader.  This will minimize  tangles and not interfere much with the jig sink rate or action.  That is why a jig and a shrimp fly is such a common tandem setup for vertical jigging.  But you can actually tie some pretty big flies and get away with  it.  I have used the big fly technique to go for doubles on the lingcod when I though  that I wouldn't be able to get many productive drifts that day.  It worked a couple of times, but not enough to know whether a plain old shrimp fly would have worked just as well.

In summary, the  best thing to do when the guy next to you on the rail ties on a rig with two weighted lures is to move as far away as possible.  Whatever you do, don't encourage them.

As Wilbur said to Orville, "I'll let you try this first".  :)

-J

gstours

  Thanks for you civil comments and truth serum ,   this was not the greatest example of my experiments,  it was a hypothitical situation of some everyday folks.    I have been the scape goat here many times to not only learn things,    butt to help others here that might read our comments and learn as well......   Everybody is different in abilitys, experience, monitary advantage, and time to make their dececions to hopefully fish as this is kinda a fishing forum,    Ive learned a lot from this forum and can only thank Alan again for inviting me in.....
   Thanks for your replys,       Pease to owl world .  :'(

Ron Jones

I didn't realize that the top jig was hookless and tied in line. If it was hung on a loop I bet it would get bit, but as J says probably not enough for you to tell if is better or not.

Most important part of this reply: Wilbur was a wimp, DON'T BE A WILBUR!!! :)

The Man
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

jurelometer

Hey Gary,

I thought it was an interesting and worthwhile question.  I was pretty sure that  it did not work from seeing tangles, but never thought about specifically why until you brought up the subject.

Quote from: Ron Jones on December 23, 2021, 01:11:35 AM

Most important part of this reply: Wilbur was a wimp, DON'T BE A WILBUR!!! :)


On the other hand, don't forget that saying about the early bird getting the worm, but the second mouse getting the cheese.  I wonder if they flipped a coin, or if Orville was more of the "hold my beer" type.

-J


Cor

#12
I started off by laughing at myself for trying to answer something about which I actually had no experience or knowledge or did not even understand.

I am sure many a time some will think "duh,......what's he on about" but I don't mind that, after all it takes all kinds to make up a forum and we do need a good laugh from time to time. :) :) :)
Cornelis

boon

#13
I could be way off-base here but I'm about 80% sure these jigs are used as glorified sinkers, I don't think there's a whole lot of jigging that goes on. Just add more lead.

gstours

Thanks for your reply. Maybe I should have asked the question differently.....
Plane and simply.    Wood adding a little more weight as shown in the diagram,  help,  and almost be equal to helping the bottom jig stay down?   
   It's a pretty easy question,   Butt  maybe out of the box 📦?🤷‍♂️
       Thanks for your interest, time is short.   Drop back down.😁