okuma soltera 30II shifting problem

[Navidad Nutcase]

Good day everyone. been a very long  time between post. Problems always get me back here pront.
I opened an okuma SLR30II for servicing. 1st thing I found was all 3 spool bearing are rusted completely solid. no stsinless steel here. I replaced the bearings however now the reel will not shift out of low speed setting. At first go round, I never took the handle side of this reel apart.  now I've had the handle nut retainer (516) and transmission pin (517-1) out.  the pin is threaded on the opposite end from the button. I think it must thread into the drive gear pin (517) but I'm not sure. the threads are covered in rust and the coil spring inside is also rust. I can't get it out.
Is this thing worth diving into deeper ? Compared to the old PENNS i take apart - this looks complicated . anytutorial on this reel or the 50 would give me a bit if encouragement. right now I just want to button it up and send in back to my amigo. thanks for any advice. It may be a few days before I get back to this sire
Cheers
Greg in mexico

[alantani]

yeah, there are two springs in the shifter mechanism, 204-2 and 204-3.  they both have to be able to "travel" or the shifter will not work.  they also have to be balanced perfectly, or they will "over-engage/under-engage" in one direction or another.  you'll have to dig them out, clean them up and then re-install with a glop of grease.  if the springs are damaged, then they will have to be replaced.  

https://www.reelschematic.com/wp-content/uploads/schematics/Okuma/Solterra/Okuma%20Solterra%20SLX-30II.pdf

[Donnyboat]

that is a serprize, all the Okuma reels I have worked on, had good quality gear in them with know rust at all, maybe they changed manufacturing companies, cheers Don.

[alantani]

i dunno.  what you are describing is extensive saltwater intrusion.  even the best stainless steels will rust eventually. 

[jurelometer]

Agree with the boss.  It is highly likely  that Okuma is using stainless bearings. And  saltwater corroded stainless bearings is not necessarily a quality issue.

Bearings need to be made out of hard steel so that they don't wear out quickly.  But stainless steel alloys that are highly saltwater corrosion resistant (like 316) cannot be tempered to a high level of hardness.  You have to pick a tradeoff.    Most (all?) stainless bearings see in reels are made from  440c  in order to provide  a balance between hardness and corrosion resistance.   440c does fine in plain old natural freshwater (about the same as your forks and spoons that you run through the dishwasher), and not so good a job in saltwater but still much better then plain old high carbon steel.

From what I have read,  better quality control in the process of heat treating for hardness and then stress relief, and finally chemical passivation can improve the performance and corrosion resistance of 440c parts.  There can be better and worse 440c bearings, but none will be saltwater proof.

-J

[alantani]

that is my understanding as well.  300 series stainless is more corrosion resistant, but too soft to last long as a bearing under heavy axial or radial loads.  400 series stainless is much harder, but more prone to saltwater corrosion.  that is why all of our "stainless" steel bearing fail so quickly.  even with ceramic hybrid bearings, only the balls are ceramic,  the races are 400 series stainess, so ceramic hybrid bearings really offer no advantate over plain stainless. 

[alantani]

the issue for greg is the springs.  per mcmaster.com, they could be 316 stainless, but they could also be 302.  there should be no way that someone would have put plain carbon steel springs in this reel.  that would be a HUGE mistake. 

[jurelometer]

My vote would be 302 for springs over 316 in most cases.  302 will make for a better performing spring, and will corrode about the same as stainless shafts and bearings.  316 might be a better idea if spring performance is not critical, or if a corroded spring would create a maintenance issue beyond remove and replace.



A bit more detail:

All 300 series are not the same.  And not all 300 series stainless is more saltwater corrosion resistant than  400 series.  440c (used for bearings) typically has about the same level of chloride resistance as 304 (used for non-hardened stainless reel parts).  Among the commonly used grades of stainless, only 316 provides a significant saltwater advantage.   I made some 316 parts, but these are probably the only 316 parts in the reels using them.   And it was probably a dumb idea, as it does not matter much if only one of the reel's parts is highly corrosion resistant.

A good resource from a manufacturer to read about the various grades of stainless, including the exotics:

https://www.pennstainless.com/resources/product-information/stainless-grades/

I think that it breaks down like this:

18-8 is a general term for steel containing at least 18% chromium  and 8% nickel. Usually  stainless products marketed as 18-8 are using type 304.  You might see 18-8 labels on some of the stainless stuff in your kitchen.

304 is the most common grade of stainless steel.  It is relatively easily (compared to other stainless grades) to shape and machine.   It has good corrosion resistance, but  is not resistant to chlorides (like saltwater) for extended periods of time.

303  is like 304, but with added sulfur to improve free machining, but at some  expense of corrosion resistance.

302 is also similar to 304, but with added carbon to improve strength.  Better for things like springs.  The added carbon decreases corrosion resistance.

316 adds in molybdenum.  That greatly improves resistance to chlorides.  This is the stuff you want for best corrosion resistance.  It is a bit more finicky to machine, and is a bit softer than the other 300 types listed above.

There are more exotic stainless steels, but I can't comment on them, and it is unlikely that these are used in reels.

Most reel parts that are stainless are probably going to be 302 (springs),  303/304  (handle arms, bridge plates, yokes, screws, gear sleeves, occasionally gears not described as hardened), 440c (ball bearings, roller clutches), or 416/420 (gears or other parts described as hardened or heat treated stainless).  316 usage seems pretty rare in reels, usually restricted to a few aftermarket products.

Among the above, only 316 has high chloride resistance.

I would probably use 302 for replacement springs, because the better spring performance is useful, and it will be close to the same level of saltwater corrosion resistance as the rest of the stainless parts.. Just coat them with a bit of grease.

This is not to say that some low-end manufacturers might be buying discount crappy stainless stock with impurities, cheating a bit on the accuracy of the blends, or doing a substandard job when it comes to heat treating, stress relief, or passivation.  Still, I believe that the corrosion we often blame on "cheap" stainless is most likely a result of saltwater intrusion, long maintenance intervals, and a misunderstanding of the properties of stainless steel grades. AKA, pilot error. 

-J

[Brewcrafter]

jurelometer - yeah, 316 is what we live and die by in my world.  And it is finicky.  Loves to gall.... - john

[Navidad Nutcase]

wow. go on holiday for a couple a weeks and come back for some fine educated reading. Thanks guys.

I attacked the spring problem this morning. .Well, I tried. I put the 2 speed "push button" back into this reel before I left on holidays. As I mentioned, it has threads on the end that goes into the reel. I pushed the button in deep and turned it clockwise. It seated into ''something'' but the reel still would not change gears...... Now days later, I cant get the button to come out of whatever I threaded it into. Probable what ever I threaded it into is turning as well when I twist the button counterclock wise. Any ideas?
Greg