Jigmaster Double dog bridge and PC98 Alternating?

Started by PrinceAlbertLure, February 05, 2022, 05:44:56 PM

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PrinceAlbertLure

I just picked up two SS double dog  bridges and two PC 98 SS sleeves.
The dogs are not simultaneously engaging.   
The stock sleeve engages simultaneously.
I guess I was under the impression the "double engaging" was designed for the higher tooth count of the SS.
Should I grind a little off the left side dog?
Thoughts, tips, and remedies would be appreciated.
I know I am not the only one who has experienced this. 
-Ian

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NMeWRKhpTnBueES48

Swami805

Doesn't that sleeve have more teeth?  The benefit of alternating is eliminating some of the slop and back play in the handle. It's already SS so it's very strong, not likely to break with just one dog engaged especially in a small reel like a jigmaster
Do what you can with that you have where you are

Gfish

If you want more strength, you could grind down one dog for simultaneous engagement. Recommend slow on the grinding with lots of cooling via water and testing for fit.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

day0ne

There are two different SS sleeves for the Jigmaster, one has 8 teeth, and one has 10 teeth. One has the dogs engaging simultaneously (8 teeth??) and one has the dogs alternating (10 teeth???).  I'm sorry that I don't remember for sure which one is which, but it should be easy to figure out. The stock sleeve has 8 teeth.
David


"Lately it occurs to me: What a long, strange trip it's been." - R. Hunter

PrinceAlbertLure

I ground one dog short and it engages simulataneously.
I have the 10 tooth SS.
The bridge/dogs are designed for the 8 teeth.
It won't be an issue with alternating in the jigmaster.
I just wanted to see if anyone knew of a different ready made dog that will dual engage or someone who modified one.
Thanks for the replies!

Wompus Cat

Quote from: PrinceAlbertLure on February 06, 2022, 05:00:59 PM
I ground one dog short and it engages simulataneously.
I have the 10 tooth SS.
The bridge/dogs are designed for the 8 teeth.
It won't be an issue with alternating in the jigmaster.
I just wanted to see if anyone knew of a different ready made dog that will dual engage or someone who modified one.
Thanks for the replies!


Glad it worked out for you .
I was afraid that shortening the pawl would make it move backwards under a load as it would be awfull close to the fulcrum point .
If a Grass Hopper Carried a Shotgun then the Birds wouldn't MESS with Him

Squidder Bidder

Quote from: PrinceAlbertLure on February 06, 2022, 05:00:59 PM
I ground one dog short and it engages simulataneously.
I have the 10 tooth SS.
The bridge/dogs are designed for the 8 teeth.
It won't be an issue with alternating in the jigmaster.
I just wanted to see if anyone knew of a different ready made dog that will dual engage or someone who modified one.
Thanks for the replies!

How much material did you remove from the dog to make it engage simultaneously with the other?

Do you have any before and after pictures to demonstrate? I was thinking of using the double dog bridge with a SS sleeve on a Jigmaster build - I did not know that the dogs didn't engage simultaneously.


day0ne

Quote from: Squidder Bidder on February 08, 2022, 04:55:44 PM
Quote from: PrinceAlbertLure on February 06, 2022, 05:00:59 PM
I ground one dog short and it engages simulataneously.
I have the 10 tooth SS.
The bridge/dogs are designed for the 8 teeth.
It won't be an issue with alternating in the jigmaster.
I just wanted to see if anyone knew of a different ready made dog that will dual engage or someone who modified one.
Thanks for the replies!

How much material did you remove from the dog to make it engage simultaneously with the other?

Do you have any before and after pictures to demonstrate? I was thinking of using the double dog bridge with a SS sleeve on a Jigmaster build - I did not know that the dogs didn't engage simultaneously.



Use the 8 tooth stainless gear sleeve and they will engage simultaneously. This is only a problem with the 10 tooth sleeve.
David


"Lately it occurs to me: What a long, strange trip it's been." - R. Hunter

oc1


Brewcrafter

I wouldn't necessarily use the word "problem", it is just a question of how you want to set the reel up with aftermarket parts.  My experience is with 113H but the principles are the same.  With my 10 tooth sleeves I have simultaneous engagement - it was how I chose to set these reels up.  Had I chosen to stay with the stock brass sleeve or an aftermarket stainless 8 tooth sleeve, I would have alternating engagement so that only one dog at any time is "locking" the gear, however with the 8 teeth and 2 dogs alternating you end up with the equivalent of a 16 tooth gear sleeve (16 detents per rotation and less backlash) with greater strength (the physical teeth and dog are sized like a standard 8 tooth sleeve).  I do not know if the same math works in reverse with the Jiggy (i have not torn enough of them apart) but the principles are the same.  And a single dog is pretty "dog"gone robust; if I were to do these builds all over I would go with an 8 tooth aftermarket sleeve and get the finer detents, but with only 3 seasons on one reel and one on the other, I can't bring myself to do it ju$t yet. - john

jurelometer

#10
 There are a couple fairly long threads on alternating vs double engaging dogs.   Only on AT could we debate something like this for hundreds of posts.  :). Here is a recap:

Usually a dog failure occurs because the gear sleeve/post flexes enough during winding under load that the dog goes under or over the ratchet teeth.  This is especially true for the classic gear sleeve star drag designs from Penn.  Double engaging  doesn't help here. 

On many reels, the dog post is supported on only one end. On these reels, double engaging is theoretically helpful if the first post starts to get levered out of position, the second dog starts sharing the load.

 Even though it appears that these synchronized dogs are engaing together, one will always be contacting first. The first contact has to flex or fail a bit before distributing a small amount of its load to a second dog.  So with doubly engaging dogs, you are probably getting something no better than an 80/20 split of the load.  50/50 is unlikely.  This is why they don't put extra dogs to increase load capacity on real machinery.

For the mechanism to have maximum strength, you want to be able to draw a straight line from the dog post through the center of the dog tip and ratchet tooth.  This line also has to be tangent to a circle that can be drawn through the center of all the ratchet teeth.   Otherwise, the ratchet  is not pushing the dog towards the post, but is levering it in one direction or the other, relying on jamming or wedging  the dog at an angle to  the ratchet  tooth instead of pushing directly against it. 

In addition to decreasing the stopping power, an unaligned dog/ratchet combo will wear out more quickly.  Assuming that the original dog/ratchet setup was designed correctly (reel designers are occasionally sloppy when it comes to engineering principles), shortening a dog is going to make it  lever inwards.

This is not to say that these "simultaneous" dog setups that seem to be so popular won't work just fine, but rather that at best you will be getting only a slight advantage in strength, and are probably  making things slightly worse overall.   If the reel has alternating dogs, I would be inclined to leave it that way.  At least you will be doing something useful by removing handle backplay.

-J

Rancanfish

Thanks for the explain J-man.  I was going to answer but you put it perfectly as usual.
I woke today and suddenly nothing happened.

Gfish

#12
Yup. Good detail J. Have to admit, I wait and see if you're gonna post sometimes, with all that cool technical stuff. All said, seems like an ss sleeve and ss double dog arrangement that alternates might be best. I've never gotten them to synchronize perfectly by filing.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!