Are these SS or Ceramic Hybird bearings?

wussero · February 21, 2022, 04:07:39 AM

Hi all, recently replaced some bearings for a friend.HP fishing products claimed these are ceramic hybirds, but these ball bearings look like SS to me?
Please let me know if there is way to tell visually if its ceramic or stainless.

Thanks

oldmanjoe · February 21, 2022, 04:27:28 AM

You have to look at the ball itself , what color is it ?

Gfish · February 21, 2022, 01:55:12 PM

So that means that the hybrid b.b.'s have only ceramic balls? Prolly white colored?

oldmanjoe · February 21, 2022, 02:23:13 PM

Yes Hybrid are ceramic ball only . `This may help explain the different types .
https://www.emersonbearing.com/products/ceramic-bearings/
https://www.cbrbearing.com/386/blog/in-ceramic-hybrid-ball-bearings-the-ceramic-makes-all-the-difference

Gfish · February 21, 2022, 02:32:05 PM

Thanks, Joe. Interesting, full ceramic bearings, they say(Emersonbearings.com)are not as durable, but are used in higher load capacities.

ReelClean · February 21, 2022, 11:11:59 PM

Quote from: Gfish on February 21, 2022, 02:32:05 PM
Thanks, Joe. Interesting, full ceramic bearings, they say(Emersonbearings.com)are not as durable, but are used in higher load capacities.

From reading about ceramics over the longer term, the two main drawbacks I have seen raised are the noise they make (esp. when run dry) and there is some question about their ability to absorb shock loads or handle ultrasonic cleaning.
cheers
Steve

oldmanjoe · February 22, 2022, 02:28:04 AM

https://www.ortechceramics.com/ceramic-bearings-vs-steel-bearings/
It looks like the ceramics excel in all cataglorys .

oc1 · February 22, 2022, 07:38:12 AM

Full ceramic is very noisy when run dry. You cannot hear hybrid ceramic if they are oiled. Not knowing any better, I've put full ceramic bearing in the ultrasonic cleaner without incident.

jurelometer · February 22, 2022, 07:15:48 PM

Ceramics are the only game in town if you you are running in a high heat environment, working with chemicals that would damage stainless, or need to avoid contaminating product with bearing lube. None of these apply to fishing reels, well, except that the chlorides in saltwater are hard on 440c stainless.

Performance-wise, the cages, seals/shields and especially any oils or greases will all effect bearing resistance more than the difference between ceramic and stainless. If you run full ceramic without seals and lubricants, you should see less rolling resistance (some thing with stainless). If you oil up and use seals, the condition of the oil and seals should be the biggest variable, not whether the balls are ceramic not. Unlike stainless steel, corrosion is not a problem for full ceramics, so running them dry and unshielded is an option if you can handle the noise. And then cleaning is simply a fresh water rinse. Not having to every worry about a corroded bearing seems pretty cool.

I haven't played with full ceramic bearings, but I would expect that an accurate fit on the sideplates is more important. The outer race is not going to like a overly tight fit, and if if the fit is loose, what is the point of using a tight tolerance bearing?

The other issue is the cost of the bearings. Reputable full ceramics are crazy expensive. And the hybrids are unappealing to me for fishing saltwater -higher cost, not fully corrosion resistant, and requiring lubricant to protect the stainless races from corrosion.

I am not sure that I buy the argument about durability and "shock fractures" on properly installed ceramics of good quality. Ceramics are used in some pretty demanding environments, and reels don't demand much compared to other machinery.

Curious if the tournament casters use ceramics, and how they run them. This seems to me like the most logical use case for ceramics.

-J

oc1 · February 22, 2022, 11:58:03 PM

Believe it or not, running stainless bearings dry can work pretty well for a day's fishing. Lubricating un-oiled bearings with water also works well for a while. You just have to keep fising and never stop or the bearings will corrode and seive.

Try it using the free spin time test on a mandrel. You might be surprised

handi2 · May 20, 2022, 07:02:11 PM

I've installed a few hundred of the ceramic hybrid bearings in Baitcasters.

If you use thin fast spinning oil like TSI301, TSI321, and Hot Sauce, they are noisy.

If you use a thicker oil there is no reason to use them at all.

Full ceramic bearings would be a total waist of money in a fishing reel

Keith

Breadfan · May 23, 2022, 11:55:16 AM

Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2022, 07:15:48 PMCurious if the tournament casters use ceramics, and how they run them. This seems to me like the most logical use case for ceramics.

-J

It would seem logical to use full ceramics but I don't think any of them do, just the hybrids. I know the U.S. 125 gram weight class was broken in Feb. using Chinese Hybrid Abec 5 bearings at 279 yards. The theory behind that was the Abec 5's have less tolerance that the Abec 7's, making them spin more freely, and thus, longer. It was a different approach and it worked. Makes you think.

JasonGotaProblem · May 23, 2022, 01:20:17 PM

I think people overlook an important aspect of tighter tolerances in manufacturing: rounder balls that can spin more freely in the races.

Anecdotal evidence only, but When I put hybrids from HPR in my spheros, before install they were so free spinning that the weight of the outer race was enough to make it free-spin a few seconds on the tip of a pencil. Even the really small ones. And these were rubber sealed. I've never seen a small steel bearing do that, though I find I can get closer to that by removing the seals or shields. Not saying its impossible with steel, but I've never seen it.

But I've also bought cheap ceramics that are only slightly better, if at all, than the quality stock steelies they replaced.

So any comparison is meaningless unless you can accurately consider the quality of the bearings being compared.

jurelometer · May 23, 2022, 08:30:50 PM

Quote from: Breadfan on May 23, 2022, 11:55:16 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on February 22, 2022, 07:15:48 PMCurious if the tournament casters use ceramics, and how they run them. This seems to me like the most logical use case for ceramics.

-J

It would seem logical to use full ceramics but I don't think any of them do, just the hybrids. I know the U.S. 125 gram weight class was broken in Feb. using Chinese Hybrid Abec 5 bearings at 279 yards. The theory behind that was the Abec 5's have less tolerance that the Abec 7's, making them spin more freely, and thus, longer. It was a different approach and it worked. Makes you think.

Did make me think...

And come to think of it, this actually makes sense. Here is my new theory:

One of the advantages of ball bearings is that they can handle a bit of misalignment without too much friction, but the tighter the tolerances in the bearings, the more binding (and therefore friction) the same amount of misalignment is going to cost you. As long as the spool isn't vibrating like crazy, but even ABEC 3 is probably plenty adequate.

The assembly itself needs to be manufactured and assembled to extremely tight tolerances to take advantage of more dimensionally accurate bearings. Think how expensive it would be to make and assemble a reel spool so that the bearing fits with just the right amount of interference in a pocket bored centered, square and true to the spool itself and the bearing pocket on the other side with something like .0001 in collective tolerance to take advantage of an ABEC 7. It ain't gonna happen. And that is with the detached spindle models. It gets even worse with fixed spindle models where the bearings are mounted on screw-on sideplates.

Since the reel assembly itself is not going to be holding the bearing pair in tight alignment, a bit of slop can come in handy.

With real machinery, the point of going to a higher ABEC rating is primarily to support higher RPMs with less vibration, and therefore less bearing wear and a longer service life. But this is in machinery with high dimension tolerances running continuously at tens of thousands of RPMs.

With a casting reel, we have a machine with low dimensional tolerance that may barely squeak into medium-high RPMs under light load for a short period of time. We should be concerned more about rotational resistance than vibration. Things like shields and lubricant choice is what is going to affect rotational resistance. Misalignment can also affect resistance a bit, and this is where the looser fit of a lower rated bearing could come in handy.

-J

Breadfan · May 24, 2022, 02:51:38 PM

Yeas, it all makes perfect sense. Pair the correct bearing with what the machine (reel) is capable of handling that is the most efficient. I got into a long discussion with the guy who built the reel that broke the record and he viewed it the exact same way. They had been using Abec 7 Hybrids and with the change to the Abec 5, it gave them the few yards needed.