How to Determine Line Ratings/rod strength?

Started by Wolfram M, July 15, 2022, 02:47:28 AM

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Wolfram M

I put a gambler's bid out on a lot of 5 "Graphite Rod Blank, Unsanded, MH 7' length" on Ebay, and actually got 6 nice looking blanks, from a composites standpoint, they look good. No un-wetted areas, consistent finish, no chips/nicks/wiggles. Just need a light sanding to get the "teeth" off where the cellophane tape was at. (the cellophane tape is still on one of the rods!)

Doing the 90* bend test, they are a moderate-fast action, by my eye, which suits me just fine. The butt end measures 0.566" and the tip measures 5.5mm diameter. They are hollow, and feel "medium heavy" to me for sure-I'd guess 12 to 20lb test line? What's the best way to decide on a "line rating" for these? I know what I *think* would be OK but surely there is a way to more accurately figure that out. Also, how do I know what kind of jig weight it might be suitable for?

I'd like to use these as an inshore or light pier fishing rod. I fish the gulf coast mostly, so spanish mackerel, jack crevalle, sheepshead, these are what I'd be looking to fish for with one of these. Of course, you can't pick out what fish hits the line-I'd not turn down a king or cobia if one wanted to sniff the hook!

I'll be building at least two of these as spinning rods, for a 3000-5000 size reel. I'll probably spool with 20lb braid, with a 15 or 20lb mono leader, depending on if I start getting cut off. I might build one as a casting rod, but then I have to actually repair the Penn 155 I bought last year for 2$!

UKChris1

I see no one has kicked the wasps' nest yet  >:D

This question, in the UK at least, seems to get a lot of people hot under the collar and what starts out as a sensible discussion can degenerate into a bit of a bun fight.

Anyway, for what it is worth...

I would measure the pounds required to produce a 'comfortable fighting curve' in the blank, the number of pounds needed to generate the 90 degree bend and then if you dare, the number of pounds needed to bend the blank to the maximum you could stand without thinking the rod is going to break. (All this requires you to tape some rings in place as well as find a way to fix line firmly to the butt end if no handle is yet fitted).

You now have three figures, increasing in number. The line strength you choose is then related to these figures, but there is no magic formula.

However, don't use line lighter than the maximum pounds you expect to pull with the rod (obviously). But if you are one who likes to use a rod pretty well bent when fighting a fish, you need heavier line than if you never expect to go past the 90 degree curve. (Turned the other way round, some anglers like to use a stiffer rod than others for the same strength line.)

But, this can be overridden depending on the type of fishing you are doing; for example, if there is active casting or jigging or other working of the bait or whether the rod is largely static as in bottom fishing.

As an example of the controversy this question can stir, I have seen plenty of people say that the 'correct' line strength is five times the test curve (test curve = the 90 degree pull in pounds). No reasoning or justification given, just their opinion stated as fact (though I do know the historical reasoning behind this 5X relationship). In such a system, a rod with a 26lb test curve would be 'matched' to 130lb line - and be laughed off any game boat that was going for the big stuff as a ludicrous mismatch. Such a rod could never make use of the strength of the line. Yet such a rod might be perfect for 50lb line and, in the hands of a skilled angler, be matched to 30lb line.

However, to try to be a little more helpful, I suggest working on approximately two to three times the 90 degree test curve figure as a starting point for line test and adjusting as necessary until you feel you have a comfortable match that suits both your style and the type of fishing you are doing. And ignore the pundits who tell you you're wrong  ;)

Good luck!

Wolfram M

That's pretty much where I landed, I went to Cabela's with one of the blanks and flexed fishing rods until I found one that matched for both diameter and flex feel, and read the line rating off the rod.

I bought a pair of fuji guide sets for a 7ft rod, and will do the guide placement for a 2 to 2.25" diameter spool lip.

I like cork handles so I am going to have to learn to ream a cork handle to fit next.

philaroman

Quote from: UKChris1 on July 25, 2022, 04:39:10 PM...As an example of the controversy this question can stir, I have seen plenty of people say that the 'correct' line strength is five times the test curve (test curve = the 90 degree pull in pounds). No reasoning or justification given, just their opinion stated as fact (though I do know the historical reasoning behind this 5X relationship). In such a system, a rod with a 26lb test curve would be 'matched' to 130lb line - and be laughed off any game boat that was going for the big stuff as a ludicrous mismatch. Such a rod could never make use of the strength of the line...


hey, that seems to work pretty well for lighter, longer (>10') 
Match/Barbel/Carp rods...  up to 4.0TC = 20#line...  maybe
as rods get shorter & heavier, the 5X guestimate gets progressively sillier

JasonGotaProblem

Not to veer away from the intended question but in the modern braid-spooled world, lure rating is of far more interest than line rating.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Midway Tommy

QuoteI like cork handles so I am going to have to learn to ream a cork handle to fit next.

A good option for a tool that is usable for other things is a decent quality rat tail file. A nice medium size works well as long as the diameter is smaller than the smallest diameter where your handle goes. I have all three sizes, large, medium & small and have never used anything else. They work just fine, they're not expensive and at least you can use them for other things like metal and woodworking. Just go slow and keep testing the fit once you start getting close. The epoxy will fill any minor over reaming gaps. 
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

Paul Roberts

Things change as you put guides on. A guide-less blank feels lighter and stiffer. You won't know whether the finished rod suits you, or your intended purpose, til you wrap one up.

Wolfram M

Oh, I have plenty of files. (I teach high school machine shop, and own my own machine shop)

The last rod I built the cork was almost perfect right out of the box, this time I've got to enlarge the 0.25" hole to 0.566" at the bottom and 0.510 at the top of the rear cork, then fit the front cork after the reel seat is fitted.

boon

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on July 25, 2022, 06:42:32 PMNot to veer away from the intended question but in the modern braid-spooled world, lure rating is of far more interest than line rating.

Only in that most braid's "line rating" may as well be a made up number.
Comes back to how much drag you need to run to land the fish you want to target with that rod, which in turn comes down to how brave you are and how good your knots are.

jurelometer

A bunch of threads on this here and other places.

The classic rod ratings:

fly rods:  line weight(determined by the weight of the first 30 feet of the fly line)

Lighter/freshwater rods:  lure weight range and monofilament line test range.

Saltwater rods:  line class - the suggested range of  monofilament line - eg 30-40 lbs, and sometimes a lure weight range.

As technology changed, these have been tweaked a bit.

Fly rods have turned into a mess.  Depending on the type of fishing, you can be aerilizing up to double the original 30 feet, so the line class is no longer accurate. 

A 7 weight rod intended to flop a line in your bass pond will be much lighter than a 7 weight rod intended to shoot a distance cast on the flats.  Nowadays, some rods may list the range of aerilized fly line weight recommended in grains.  For example a 10 wt rod with a 400 to 500 grain range.

Freshwater and saltwater haven't changed much.  The ratings are still more or less  mono based, and you have to extrapolate a bit for braid. Lure weight doesn't change, but if a rod is rated at 30 lbs, it means that the manufacturer is really telling you that about 1/3, or 10 lbs is around the top of the suggested drag range, even if 80 lb braid fits on the same reel.  It would make more sense to just list action, payload weight range ( for casting rods), and max drag.

And of course, the manufacturers are not consistent.

What makes one blank different from another of the same length when they bend and unbend is (1) action (how evenly the rod bends from tip to butt), (2)  the amount of force pulling on the tip required to get the rod to bend to the maximum useful range (90 degrees), and (3) the frequency that the tip oscillates when pulled back and released.  Two blanks with similar numbers for all three will not be identical in performance, but will be close enough for classification purposes.

This is all easy enough to quantify, but there is no neutral 3rd party out there that does this.

But there have  been efforts.  There is the common cents system used to share ratings between independent fly rod builders, and the carp rods in Europe have a "test curve" system that rates blanks using item (2) from above.

For the original question, you can use the eyeball test to estimate the three criteria on your blanks, and then compare against better brand name rods at the local tackle shop.  At least, that is what I would do.  The blank diameter at tip and butt is not too accurate as it does not take into account other variables, most notably wall thickness.

-J

happyhooker

In the "old days", a lot of finished rods used blanks that still had the "teeth" (as you put it) on the surface.  Not everyone likes that look.  I've got a couple rods that way, and kinda like the different look.

Frank

Wolfram M

I just figure that these will handle a 1/2 to 1 1/2 oz lure for now, until I get them finished and can actually try them out.

For the blank finish-I don't mind the spiral wrap look, but some of these are actually cut-you sharp. The one I sanded down got looked over by another local rodmaker this afternoon and he said he'd not worry about it, tie it up and fish the thing. Also said he'd cut about 1" off the tip of one of my blanks because he didn't like the look of how it was shaped, but I'll need to measure for tiptops before I start cutting that tip off.

Hopefully I'll get time to get handles glued up and mark out the blanks for the guides this week.

Squidder Bidder

#12
I'm trying to get into custom rod building, and I've read that you can shorten the blank from either or both ends to change the action of the blank.

Have you considered that (I'm assuming you don't want five of the same length/action).

Swami805

Cutting blanks is a tricky business, especially at the tip. Sometimes it works out but usually not so much.  It's usually better to get the length you want
If you're thinking you want a nice finish coat on a sanded blank check out CPxtra from voodoo rods. It's difficult to mimic a factory finish but this stuff comes pretty close
Do what you can with that you have where you are

philaroman

Quote from: Wolfram M on July 27, 2022, 03:56:06 AMI just figure that these will handle a 1/2 to 1 1/2 oz lure for now, until I get them finished and can actually try them out.

For the blank finish-I don't mind the spiral wrap look, but some of these are actually cut-you sharp. The one I sanded down got looked over by another local rodmaker this afternoon and he said he'd not worry about it, tie it up and fish the thing. Also said he'd cut about 1" off the tip of one of my blanks because he didn't like the look of how it was shaped, but I'll need to measure for tiptops before I start cutting that tip off.

Hopefully I'll get time to get handles glued up and mark out the blanks for the guides this week.

you paid for 5, you got 6 -- correct?  the "funky tip" one is the throw-in
why not make it the sacrificial whipping boy?  build it uncut;
stress test the hell out of it for casting weight, 'til tip breaks...  re-tip;
then, stress test the hell out of it for max drag, 'til middle explodes 
then, you'll know all you need for the 5 good blanks