Braid or mono for surface iron reel?

Started by pjstevko, August 07, 2022, 04:59:26 AM

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pjstevko

I've been doing more fishing out of San Diego and wanna try my hand at throwing surface irons with a conventional reel. I usually use a spinner to throw snipers, poppers and surface irons but I wanna embrace the SoCal tradition but don't know what to spool the reel with? I can't cast a conventional further then 20' and I'm worried if I spool the reel with braid I'll birdnest the crap out of it.

Straight mono?
Braid to 75 yard mono topshot?
Braid to 3' leader?

Pj

PacRat

If you're new to casting conventionals start with mono. It's more forgiving and it's cheap. Once you're comfortable with mono you can spool up with braid. Or...you could take a jigmaster with a couple spare spools with both. When casting a conventional, your choice of rod can make more difference than your reel. Match your rod action to the jig you'll be throwing.

jzman

#2
Spectra backing to mono.  Mono as many yards as you think you can cast (add more yards just for error) without the knot (connecting spectra to mono) going through the guides. Typically 75-100 yards mono is more than enough.

Also, forgot to add that surface iron jigs were originally designed for mono and reels with slow (relative to modern reels) IPT (inches per turn)/gear ratio.  Penn jigmaster would be the prototypical reel.   However, even the "Hi-speed" jigmaster 5.1:1 is considerably slow to today's standards of 6.1:1 and even higher.  In addition, braid typically floats while mono sinks.  So you will have to play with your retrieve to get the perfect swim and kick.

rogan

Braid backing to mono topshot, at least 50 yards of mono. Use Alan's modified Tony Pena knot for the connection. Get a mono that casts well. I found that P-line original in smoke blue worked very well for me. I use 50lb, which seems heavy, but I had no issues at Cedros last year and I will be running it again this year. I also tried Big Game, but I find it very stiff and much more difficult to cast. Izor XXX would be my second choice, also due to castability. Try out a few options with your gear before giving up on it, you just have to find the combo that works for you.

alantani

either will work. 

the advantages and disadvantages of mono - overall, i think that mono is easier to throw.  i definitely backlash less.  throwing a 6x jr., i can get an easy 30 yards.  for those that have been to the house, that is the distance from my bench seat to the garage door across the street.  but that's it.  it's hard for me to get much farther because i'm using a reel with a larger spool that requires more rotational inertia to get started and i'm throwing thicker line that is heavier.  i'm getting some medium range distances, but at least i'm not backlashing every other cast.

the advantages and disadvantages of braid - braid that is 5x thinner than mono will fly farther.  smaller reels with spools that are smaller require less rotational inertia to start.  the lighter the line and the lower the spool mass, the farther the cast.  when i use multi-colored metered braid, i'm casting the distance of the 10 yard topshot and 5 colors, so that is 60 yards.  the big problem is backlashes.  if you don't lay the line perfectly on the retrieve, your next cast will backlash.  on the retrieve, you have to watch the line and lay it perfectly so that it is even.  if not, you'll end up with a bird's nest on the next cast.  that's where small levelwinds help.  it's just that for big fish, you have to make sure that the line and the leveler are perfectly in sync, just in case you hook into something big.  under maximum drag, you don't want the line going left on the spool and the line leveler going right.  something is likely to give.  for cedros and little fish like calico that will not be taking drag, i have a lexa 400 with 30 pound braid and a short fluoro topshot.  for yellowtail on iron, i have an andros with 60 pound hollow and a short 50 pound fluoro topshot. 

so i see it like this - mono and medium ranges with reliable casts, fewer backlashes, good for yoyo iron and ok for surface iron.  braid and short fluoro topshots of any distance for longer casts.  good for surface iron but pay super close attention to the lay of the line on the retrieve. 

oh, and then there is your choice in rods.  yeah, because the rod is easily 50% of the equation.......   :-\
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

jurelometer

For just casting irons and definitely when starting out, I agree with the others- go with mono.   Enough to cover your casting distance if you need braid for the extra capacity.   This 30 to 60 yard stuff is confusing me - 60 yards does not seem like much of a huck if you are using a reel that can cast halfway decently.  Or maybe that is all that is typically needed on long rangers?  For Cedros panga fishing, I am not a fan of casting too far.  The spots are often shallow, so a long cast means that you can more easily get rocked, even if the fish does not take line.   If the boil is farther away, just move the boat :)

If you want to throw poppers or any lure that requires some vigorous jerking on the  retrieve, you need either a levelwind (the low profile type) or a spinner.  Just too much  light tension/slack at points during the retrieve.  With the levelwinds, I would go all braid with just a short leader that goes into my guides, but does not reach the levelwind.

I found the Pena knot a bit too bulky unless I am fishing with pretty heavy tackle.  With braid to mono, I prefer the RP knot, which is a modified albright.  I tie it this way:



It will cast right through the guides if you trim it short, which is nice if you want to cast braid with just a short mono leader. That sudden jerk to tighten the knot is the key to getting it to lock for me.

Practice casting  before you go- not so much for getting more distance but for getting skilled at removing backlashes. No fun to be dreading a backlash the whole time you are fishing.   

Reels with lighter spools are your friend. Better distance, and easier to learn.  As Alan noted, those lever drags with a heavy spool have too much inertia.

-J

MarkT

#6
I have my reels full of braid with 3-4' of mono. The knot never goes through the guides. I use a TranX 500 or Lexa 400 for throwing surface iron and rarely get a backlash. I cast a lot further than 20'... or 20 yds!

With a conventional I'd go with a mono top shot longer than your best cast with the wind behind you... so 75yds should be good.
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

Rocket Dog

Make sure you are casting wet line whether it is mono/braid or else you will backlash just as quickly. Use a water bottle or a spray when you practice. I usually have 100yrd  40lbs mono top shot and it helps a lot guiding the line back on. I tied using all braid and well, let's just say that I strip some off to add mono. You can also use a Magged reel, it will help a lot.

Aiala

Quote from: jurelometer on August 07, 2022, 05:28:08 PMWith braid to mono, I prefer the RP knot...

Same here. Never tied anything else, 0% failures. "If it ain't broke (literally!) don't fix it."  :)

~A~
I don't suffer from insanity... I enjoy every minute of it!  :D

boon

If you're still tying a knot where the mono tag points towards the end of the line you're doing yourself a disservice in terms of casting. Go through the pain of lots of bad FG knots until you can tie a good one.

Squidder Bidder

Quote from: boon on August 07, 2022, 10:11:02 PMIf you're still tying a knot where the mono tag points towards the end of the line you're doing yourself a disservice in terms of casting. Go through the pain of lots of bad FG knots until you can tie a good one.

I just picked one of these up for tying better FG knots. Haven't played with it yet but the concept makes sense and plenty of people swear by it:



I've just matched a Mag Power 970 up with a 10' foot lami surf rod similar to the OP. I haven't cast a conventional in ages and was going to start with 20lb mono with a few feet of shock leader and start chucking some lead over at the local soccer fields (when they're not playing - made that mistake before).


jurelometer

#11
Quote from: boon on August 07, 2022, 10:11:02 PMIf you're still tying a knot where the mono tag points towards the end of the line you're doing yourself a disservice in terms of casting. Go through the pain of lots of bad FG knots until you can tie a good one.

When trimmed properly, the RP knot goes right though the guides on the cast (tag pointing toward tip), it ties in mere seconds, works with a wide variety of differences in mono/ braid diameter, doesn't matter if the mono is super hard fluoro.  If I am using 65  lb Braid to non IGFA 60 lb mono leader, the knot will fail first, but consistently close to 60 lb.  Perfect for me.  I have  the point of failure in the system where I want it if I have to break off a snag.

With a short mono leader, you need to replace it frequently.  No matter how fast you get tying an FG knot, you will always be faster with an RP.  The last thing that I want to do on a bouncing panga in a hot bite is to mess around  with an FG knot, and hope I got it right. 

When FG knots fail, it is often after repeated casting.  The coils start working over the end of the mono, which is why some versions of this or similar knots melt a knob at the end of the mono, which sort of defeats the purpose of the knot if you ask me.

This is not to say that there are not folks out there that have mastered twisting up a reliable FG style knot in something approaching a reasonable length of time, at least for a specific braid/leader combo.  But for the rest of us, it takes some testing time in the field to ensure that the knots don't eventually unravel.

If I required something closer to a 100% knot that I could wind right into the spool and cast back out, an FG might well be the better knot for the job. But I am not convinced it is the better knot for every braid to mono casting situation.   

And that three or four foot overhang does't work as well for me as a foot or two when the boat is bouncing around.  A longer overhang can possibly keep the knot out of the guides and   help preload the rod a bit if your timing is good, but for learning, I would personally stick to a foot or so.

-J

jurelometer

One (hopefully) final thought.  Since Mark says that Lexa/Tranx/Komodo type levelwinds hold up well enough for chucking irons on the San Diego trips, this would be the most versatile way to go and the easiest to learn.  But it is a bit of a cheat code if the goal is to gain some old school conventional casting skills.  For that you need a wide reel that you pack yourself, and no cast control, or at least a cast control that can be  turned off all the way.

Kind of depends on what your goals are.

-J

MarkT

Oh yeah, levelwinds like the Lexa 400 and TranX 500 throw iron very well!  I caught a lot of YT with surface iron on SoA trips at both Guadalupe and San Martin!  I've even caught 3 Wahoo with a Lexa 400 and many more with TranX 500s!
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

steelfish

Quote from: pjstevko on August 07, 2022, 04:59:26 AMI've been doing more fishing out of San Diego and wanna try my hand at throwing surface irons with a conventional reel. I usually use a spinner to throw snipers, poppers and surface irons but I wanna embrace the SoCal tradition but don't know what to spool the reel with? I can't cast a conventional further then 20' and I'm worried if I spool the reel with braid I'll birdnest the crap out of it.

Straight mono?
Braid to 75 yard mono topshot?
Braid to 3' leader?

Pj

well, in order to give you a proper advice it would be good to know what reel are going to be using.
The Baja Guy