712z bail not closing

[elcarlstono]

For those of you who followed my thread about the #14 712z, the bail is giving me some problems.  It's is not closing after castings. Sometimes I even have to pull the release arm down to get it started.
The spring feels nice and strong and snaps the arm back with ease, up until I install the wire.  After tightening the screws theres just too much friction for it to swing around and close.  I've tried bending the wire this way and that with little improvement.  If i back out the screws just a quarter turn each it works fine, but then the screws start to loosen.
So either my bail spring isn't as strong as I think it is, or I've still got a bend issue, but I can't see how i would bend it.
When removing the wire it is tight in the arm and kicks out slightly away from the arm.  Its almost as if the bail wire is slightly too long.

[Gfish]

Could the non-line roller side(bail arm) be slightly twisted on the bail wire?

[oldmanjoe]

   A copy and paste from Mike , a well written detail fix.
 
 PacRat
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#19

July 12, 2022, 04:47:30 PM
Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 08:42:12 PM by PacRat
Thanks Fred...I must still be in my 'younger days' because I still do things the hard way. Your method beats mine hands-down but since I wrote it up; I'll post it anyway. Maybe it will help someone, especially if they don't have a fresh bail spring. I recently did two reels that came with homemade springs that were a little bit out of spec but I was able so get them to work flawlessly. These instructions are long (because they are a lot of people's techniques combined) but I can do this service quicker than I can write it down (but I type slow). So here it is:

This is the right place to learn. Some of the best spinning reel people are here (Tommy, Fred, Joe, Henry, Festus, and of course Sal.) I've learned volumes from these gentlemen and have subconsciously combined all their sage advice. The results have been phenomenal and will put your bail assembly in better-than-new condition.
I seem to always procrastinate on the bail until last (which is probably backwards). Almost every vintage spinner has bail issues from years of hard use or neglect I've now learned that it's best to start with the front end first because a spinner with an unreliable bail is no fun. You can do this service without removing the rotor/winding cup, but I find it much easier to remove the winding cup and handle it as a sub-assembly. This also gives you the opportunity to rid it of every grain of sand and old grease. I like to completely strip the winding cup of every component including the bail trip lever.
Once all the parts have been cleaned, I reassemble the bail assembly without the spring and without the trip lever. This is your opportunity to test the fit and feel of the bail wire (which is slightly deformed 90% of the time). This is a good time to take a good look at the trip bracket. Compare it to a known good reel or search for photos either here or on the internet. If the trip bracket looks bent, fix it now. I assemble the trip bracket and line roller, but I snug the line roller nut leaving it just loose enough that it can swivel it if required. The bail wire assembly is not attached yet. At this point you do not want the bail spring installed; just put the pivot screw in finger-tight (you will tighten it later). Then before you put the other screw in the bail pivot on the opposite side; give this interface a good eye-ball. NOTE: The Ted Williams 410 doesn't have a screw here but hooks into a pivot hole on the winding cup so you will do this check on the line roller side. Are both surfaces parallel? Is there a gap or is there contact? If it looks close; go ahead and install the bail screw (finger-tight also). Now flip the bail wire back and forth a couple of times. Is it nice and free or is there friction? If you don't feel friction; flip the winding cup over so the bail wire is hanging straight down and rock it back and forth. If the bail travels back and forth (stop-to-stop) ... congratulations, it's perfect. If it hangs up, your bail wire is tweaked and needs work.
If your bail wire needs work; first loosen the pivot screw. I like to do this on the side opposite the line roller. Just loosen the screw a couple turns and eye-ball the gap between the bail and winding cup. This will give you the best sense of which way to bend the wire. If it drags on the winding cup, it's too tight and you need to pull the ends apart a little. (Go easy, a little goes a long way). If the bail is dragging on the pivot screw, it's too wide and you need to squeeze the ends together a little bit. If it binds on both sides because it's skewed, you need a compound bend (use your intuition). Go slow and check between each tweak. This step requires finesse and patience. Might also be a good time to take a break. Once your bail flips side-to-side without friction you can proceed to the next step.
Remove the bail wire at the line roller and opposite side pivot and set it aside. Now is the time to install your trip lever. I typically only grease the threads on the screw to aid in disassembly in the future. Now is the time to install your bail spring. Make certain there is no sand, old grease or debris in there and that your bail spring is very clean. Install the spring and place the trip bracket on the spring hook (the trip bracket doesn't have the bail wire installed at this time). At this point I like to have a little grease on the pivot screw threads as it will (hopefully) not be removed again. You want to make sure your pivot screw sits in the trip bracket and the spring hook is engaged in the trip bracket (no pre-load on the spring at this time). This is where things get tricky but be patient and it will work out. I like to start the screw just a couple of turns. This is so that the stops on the trip bracket and winding cup will clear in the next step. Double check the spring hook and that the trip bracket is riding on the shoulder of the pivot screw. Now is time to pre-load your bail spring while making sure the stops clear. Once the stops clear you can start tightening the pivot screw while making certain that everything is in place and that the trip bracket isn't pinching a coil of the bail spring against the winding cup. Now your trip bracket should be very free to pivot with good return energy from the spring. It's all down-hill from here. Attach the bail wire to the pivot on the opposite side (little grease on the pivot screw threads), then attach the bail wire to the trip bracket at the line roller. Everything should fit together real nice at this stage because you already corrected the bail wire earlier. Now your bail should snap with authority. I typically won't lube it at all because grease and oil attract dirt. If you feel it needs lube I recommend Tommy's recommendation of Armor All.

-Mike

[Wompus Cat]

Could the non-line roller side(bail arm) be slightly twisted on the bail wire?

Exactly Greg !!! Plus Everything needs to be SQUEAKY CLEAN on any of these contraptions . You need to polish all surfaces where there is NO gouges or Roughness. Then assemble without the bail  and if it moves freely with no grinding or stiffness through the range THEN start getting the Bail to fit effortlessly in the two flanges by Gently bending the bail ,Arm  etc where it will . Takes a bit of time and Finesse but once you get it you will never have a problem with doing them .
Below is a pic of what your problem is .

[foakes]

If you can't fix it properly —- and might be getting a little frustrated —- I would be glad to fix it and send it back to you working properly.

24 hr. Turn-Around & N/C.

Plus I would post the fix and photos that may help others also.

Best, Fred

[Midway Tommy]

Henry points out what I noticed at first glance of the photos, but like Mike notes, there may be a couple of other adjustments and some cleaning needed. The bail plate clearly appears to be causing a bind.

[PacRat]

It's difficult to tell from the photo but it looks to me like your bail wire is tweaked and I'm thinking it's on the 1/3 nearest the pivot. If the reel were on my bench (and I was looking for remote help) I would 1st remove the line-roller end from the arm and let the bail wire just relax and then take a good photo of where the threaded part of the bail wire falls in relation to the arm.

Then 2nd, I would reattach the line-roller and then unscrew the pivot and allow that end to relax and get a good photo. Best to get two, one with the bail open and the other with the bail closed. Try to show in the photos how the pivot end fits. We could then give you better advice.

...or take Fred up on his generous offer and allow a master to breathe on it and it will perform better than new.

-Mike

[elcarlstono]

Henry points out what I noticed at first glance of the photos, but like Mike notes, there may be a couple of other adjustments and some cleaning needed. The bail plate clearly appears to be causing a bind.

Thanks for all the responses.  I forgot to click to the button to notify me.
Yes, its definitely binding on the bail plate. I did some tweaking on it yesterday and it "just started working". I'm hesitant to take it back apart again, but I doubt what I did will hold. 

[elcarlstono]

As I figured, my short term "fix" was short lived.  Here's the additional pics.

[Wompus Cat]

You have some serious corrosion  and quite a bit of an alignment problem .
As mentioned before you need to have everything SQUEAKY Clean and polished the best you can . You are getting close just need some additional cleaning ,polishing and a little Tweaking on that Bail Bar and your good to go.
Great Pictures too
Or I will make you the SAME offer as Fred to send me the Rotor assy. or the whole reel and I will tweak it for you .

[elcarlstono]

You have some serious corrosion  and quite a bit of an alignment problem .
As mentioned before you need to have everything SQUEAKY Clean and polished the best you can . You are getting close just need some additional cleaning ,polishing and a little Tweaking on that Bail Bar and your good to go.
Great Pictures too
Or I will make you the SAME offer as Fred to send me the Rotor assy. or the whole reel and I will tweak it for you .

I really appreciate the offers to fix, but I'm a DIY kind of guy.  I really want to solve this for myself (with help, of course).  Last 6 years or so I've been deep in a hole of fixing Coleman lanterns and stoves, and switching back to reels (I was a Mitchell "expert" before then).

[Wompus Cat]

Well if you were a Mitchell expert then you KNOW what it takes to get things lined up and maybe you have  been away from it too long .
I find Penns to be a lot easier to get the bail return to work than any of the Mitchells ....lol

The Bail return Mechanism should work flawlessly with out the Wire on it.
IF you feel any roughness or grinding in moving the arms before you put the wire in then it won't work properly.I run a Straight edge across both sides of the Hub to  insure they are flat and square as they can get belled out over the years.

THEN make it work with the wire in place .
Make sure the screws are tight before you attempt to do any bending on the arm or you will be looking for a New hub as it may bust out the threads.
The bail wire should FALL into the holes with as little or no pressure ,Then it should work .

[elcarlstono]

Well that's why I quoted myself on "expert"; my qualification is "I fixed a lot of them", but no I'm not an expert, and yes the bails are a pain on them.
Everything turns nicely when the wire is not in place, or with screws loosely installed; it's only when I tighten the bail screws down completely that things start to bind up, and it appears to be the bail "plate" on the non roller side grinding at an angle (seen in pic in 1st post).
Anyway, I was hoping for a quick fix, but looks like I really need to get it broken down and cleaned up really well.  I wiped out the old grease and crud , but looks like i need to go next level.  I'll report back when that's done.

[Wompus Cat]

If you follow the things posted in this thread by everyone it WILL WORK .
Any other variation and you are pissin in the Wind .

[elcarlstono]

If you follow the things posted in this thread by everyone it WILL WORK .
Any other variation and you are pissin in the Wind .

So where the metal is a little roughed up under the bail arms, what are you using to "polish" or smooth it out?  Dremel? Sand paper?