506HS project questions

Started by JasonGotaProblem, September 14, 2022, 02:23:11 PM

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JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: Keta on September 22, 2022, 03:19:46 PMIt is not really a cast control  it is to adjust the spool thrust.
Forgive me I'm not being flippant i just don't understand: what's the difference between adjusting spool thrust and a cast control? What part of the spool shaft wears out? Thanks
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

steelfish

#46
Im not keta and also not an expert, but what I have seen on many reels I have open, a cast control knob/cap comes with many small parts as tensioners, felp pads, carbon pads, copper pads, etc that helps to put some presure on the tip of the spool shaft but not adding any or just a minimal friction.

A regular side plate screwcap with a bearing or bushing as on the penn 500/501/506 dont come with any small part that reduce the friction between the tip of the spool shaft and the metal in bottom of the screwcap of the sideplate.

imagine using the brakes of your car without the brakepads and just the metal behind the pads, even with a minimal speed when trying to brake your car after some time you will have your wheel discs with deep scratches and sooner or later will brake, same will happen if you keep using or thinng on using a regular cap as cast control.

when guys do this is not uncommon to find the tip of the shaft spool as mushroom and worn out until there is not space for adjustment, then you open the reel and its almost impossible to take out the spool from the bearing or bushing, you have to file the mushroomed shaft tip and shim the bearing in order to keep the spool centered, then repeat until there is no more room to even shim the spool shaft any longer.

The Baja Guy

Maxed Out

#47
 Jason, you have opened up the rabbit hole. It's a fun place I regularly visit myself !!

 If you want a super strong 506 with 4/1 steel gears, 113h spool shaft, 1 piece frame, and more drag than you'll ever need, I recommend a Pro Gear 545. All internals are Penn parts, and a 113h DD bridge drops right in
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

Keta

The spool shaft and bearing cap will wear out.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

oldmanjoe

Quote from: Keta on September 21, 2022, 02:20:24 PMOne can hand fit double dogs so they engage at the same time. 

I am in the alternate engagement  and creating a smoother drag at or slightly above factory spec. camp.  Drag on some reels can be safely increased, usually narrow reels,  but post frames can twist under higher than designed loads.  A half or solid frame will help.

You can invest more into building a custom reel than the cost of a modern reel and not get close to modern reel specs but the "cool factor" is not there.
I agree with Lee      But i will say alternating dogs are also less fatiguing than simultaneous dogs on the same ratchet design in a stand up situation .  Were as simultaneous dogs i feel better upping the drag pressure when the stick is in a rod holder .

  Which bridge assembly would do better under a heavy load , both are the same diameter posts and sleeve diameter with the same ratchet radius .  The one with .004 thousands gap or the .018 thousands gap ?

Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

jurelometer

Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 22, 2022, 07:28:30 PMWhich bridge assembly would do better under a heavy load , both are the same diameter posts and sleeve diameter with the same ratchet radius .  The one with .004 thousands gap or the .018 thousands gap ?


Sal used to do some micro-shimming to minimize that gap. I don't remember his theory as to why it would help.

I would wager that it doesn't matter much for preventing dog or gear failure. The farther the gears are from the plate, the more leverage they have to push the post out of alignment. A larger gap should mean that the gears are farther from the plate, and I am reasonably confident that it is the gears that are doing the levering.  If you measure from the top of the plate to the center of the main gear and then add or subtract a 12 thousands of an inch, I don't think you will see much difference percentage-wise. Leverage will be about the same.   

Note that the dogs floats on a loose fit  on the dog post, so that there is not a very exact alignment. Once the ratchet is angling, it is going to start levering on the dog causing even greater misalignment. Angled dog tooth to angled ratchet.  Nothing is mating flat down there when things start going south.  This is why  the dogs  climb out of alignment, get chewed up and/or crawl under the ratchet.

Remember that "upgrading" the Jigmaster to a higher gear ratio also puts more force on the dogs for the same amount of drag.  If you add 25% more gear ratio, you are adding 25% more leverage against the dog for the same load. 

Not a long-ranger myself, but have read that back in the day, some of the old timers in the know preferred the standard Senator over the special Senator for this reason.  If you are just soaking bait, better of with the lower gear ratio.  The lower the gear ratio,the less axial load on the the gears to start angling the gear post, less force on the dogs, more drag for the same clamping load, and  you more-or-less get the low gear of a two speed, so you can wind more easily and keep that big tuna's nose up. If I get only one gear of a two speed for a big fish, I want the low gear.

The high gear ratio is nice for working lures, but it is worthwhile to point out that there is a cost in terms of the stress on the reel innards, when you hook something.  No free lunch. 

-J

oldmanjoe

#51
Lets break this down some .  With .004 or less , the ratchet radius can act quicker to help stabilize the post verses .018 .    Lets look at the cut of the main gear , when it`s under load which way is the gear heading toward the bridge or toward the  handle  ?   
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

jurelometer

Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 23, 2022, 01:02:29 AMLets break this down some .  With .004 or less , the ratchet radius can act quicker to help stabilize the post verses .018 .    Lets look at the cut of the main gear , when it`s under load which way is the gear heading toward the bridge or toward the  spool ? 

Both. Depends on whether you are winding or taking drag. Shouldn't matter that much though.  They will still push apart.  There is a thread on a hotrodded 112H that shredded gears while winding where we actually calculated the axial load and direction.  If I find it, I'll post the link.  Don't remember the direction for each offhand.

I understand your argument on the shim, and maybe that was what Sal was trying to control with the shimming. but I don't think it is buying you much to mess with it.  We are sort of just pushing the problem around without addressing the root cause.  But I have been wrong before :) 

The post is probably flexing along its length and then it springs back into place when the load is relieved.
 
If the ratchet were to provide much extra resistance, the little cross pin at the top of sleeve is bearing signifcant load.  The sleeve/post part of the system was designed with the expectation that it would not be taking much of any axial load. There is a square track on the post  with a round pin on the sleeve  that has to allow for smooth rotation, so we don't want to overload it.  And then if it does actually carry some load and without damaging the pin/track  you are now basically transferring some of the load to pulling on the peen joint holding the post.  And you are grinding the ratchet into the gear and/or bridge. 

But either way, the system is being pushed past it's designed limits and we are not addressing the root cause. Hard for me to get too enthused.

The only way to know for sure is some destructive testing: get some shims, grind down some gear sleeves, and damage a few reels.

Or for about 50 bucks, you can get a used Shimano TLD star that has a fully supported solid main shaft,  but where is the fun it that :)

-J

oldmanjoe

 The fun of it all is can any of us really build the reel according the blue print .  Can we check every part for the designed fit , not the production run fit , not the parts that come from 3-4 different manufacturers and think you are just going to assemble it with blue print tolerances. 
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

JasonGotaProblem

#54
I'm gonna take a crack at the root cause. The shaft isnt likely flexing that much. It looks to be steel. I think where it mates to the brass plate is where the flexing is happening. It's like bending a 4x4 sign post by repeatedly kicking it. Yeah you might be bending the post a little bit but youre more likely widening the hole in the ground to get the sign to lean over.

I cannot wait to fish this reel. I'm just like sitting here playing with it like a weirdo.

What if I scavenge some bits from the spool caps of one of my less interesting reels and put it behind the bearing?  Am i just grasping at straws here?
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

mhc

#55
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on September 23, 2022, 04:16:24 AMWhat if I scavenge some bits from the spool caps of one of my less interesting reels and put it behind the bearing?  Am i just grasping at straws here?

I'm not sure it would be that simple - the 505/506 spool shafts have a shoulder that contacts the inner race of the ball bearing. I could be wrong but I don't think applying side load to these plain roller bearings is a good idea - when they're adjusted to only minimise lateral movement, there isn't be any side load on the bearing.
If you want to apply pressure on the spool shaft as a cast control it should be applied to the end of the shaft, but the stepped down section on the shaft is only about 4.7mm long on the 506 spool I roughly measured;



I think the roller bearings are about 0.1719" or ~ 4.4mm deep which doesn't leave much protruding through the bearing, around 0.3mm or ~ 8 thou.
The bearing cup on the same 506 is around 5.6mm deep and the bearing is set back ~ 0.3mm in from the face;


 
Maybe a brass (or similar) disk about 1.0 - 1.5 mm thick would (5.6mm-(0.3 + 4.4)= 0.9mm) work but you will need to check all the measurements of you reel and bearing. and look at how the head plate end is supported as well.

Having said that you are probably not talking high loads to slow the spool down a bit and the bearings might handle it - I dunno  :-\ 


Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 23, 2022, 03:25:10 AMThe fun of it all is can any of us really build the reel according the blue print .  Can we check every part for the designed fit , not the production run fit , not the parts that come from 3-4 different manufacturers and think you are just going to assemble it with blue print tolerances. 

Umm.....depends on the blue print I guess.  ;D  ;D



Mike




 
It can't be too difficult - a lot of people do it.

Keta

You might be able to drill and tap the bearing caps and make something like a 43-109 (LW bearing cap) out of bronze.  You would have to do both sides.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

JasonGotaProblem

#57
Quote from: steelfish on September 22, 2022, 04:16:50 PM.....or just static mag that reel.

make some casts to check what would be the average weight you were using and static mag it accordingly, it works!!

 
Somehow I missed this. I was thinking about doing that, it doesnt seem too hard. I believe Sal did it.

I think really my goal here is to maximize the capability of this reel without completely breaking the bank. I'm about $180 into this thing. For that I could get a used star drag fathom or add what i intend to drop on Bryan's kit and get a new fathom, and end up with a reel that claims 30# of drag stock and the CS model has a mag brake.

But dang it I want my hot rod '57 Chevy! I have 20 other rigs for when I need a honda civic or a F150. I got this because it's a reel I want to fish.

Another crazy idea that is far less practical or likely, would be an aftermarket lighter shallower spool for casting. I think such a thing would be more likely to have enough orders for a 501 spool than a 506 spool, but a fella can dream.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Keta

#58
Contact  Alan at Pro Challenger about having a run of spools made.


I have more $ in a all metal 349H than a new Penn FTH40NLD2 costs.... however the 349 is a much "cooler " reel.... ;0). 
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: Keta on September 23, 2022, 01:08:46 PMContact  Alan at Pro Challenger about having a run of spools made.


I have more $ in a all metal 349H than a new Penn FTH40NLD2 costs.... however the 349 is a much "cooler " reel.... ;0). 
Sure what the heck, I got nothing to lose by asking.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.