Types of Rods

[RowdyW]

Hi Jeri, thank you for the very informative information. Its going to take me a while to absorb all of this but it will put me on the right track of what I want a rod to do for me. Again thank you very much,  Rudy

[BMITCH]

Jeri, very informative!! Now it is very clear to me the theory behind the acid wrap rods. Some time ago Diawa put out a inter-line rod. The line goes up through the blank. I have one of these and have enjoyed fishing it in the past. The only problem I have with these is that they are a PITA. To line up. Line over 40# is not an issue but under that you need a special tool to line it up. They are excellent for boat fishing where distance is not as important on the cast( in most situations). Any insight on these?
Bob

[RowdyW]

 Bob, that sounds like a Sabiki rod for bait fishing. They are still made & can be used with conventional or spinning reels. To load with light line just put a little split shot on the end of the line & drop it down the tube & hook up your sabiki rig & wind it into the tube so that it doesn't tangle.    Rudy

[Jeri]

Hi Bob,

Interlines!!!

Given that all blanks are built on a super smooth mandrel (mostly steel), as well as a very light coat of release agent, the inside of a rod blank is incredibly smooth. And in bait and lure type rods used on boats they could be very effective – however there is a serious down side.

All water has suspended particulate matter, and when this is drawn into the blank, it acts like a very fine grinding paste, which does eventually start to groove the carbon or glass of the inside of the blank – and once that starts – just wait for the line cuts and breaks to occur with frequency. The fact that the line is running in and out over the entire length of the inside of the blank, is also going to cause a lot of friction – another problem under which all lines suffer – both nylons and braids.

With more traditional rods built with guides we have gone through huge developments from original chrome plated steel rings and then all the various ceramic inserts. The value of the ceramic inserts is that they are incredible smooth and dissipate heat very well. Some of the earlier 'softer' ceramics that were around early days were prone to grooving with either steel lines or braid – though on close inspection they tended to not be quality rings, and this like all our reel components (bearings, lubricants, drag washers), there is a quality issue and where a product might be made.

There are basically 3 companies globally that I know of that truly make their rings outside China, and the biggest and most obvious is Fuji. They make superb ceramics for their rings, and even with the lowest grade of Aluminium Oxide, they will sustain protracted braid use and never groove. However, the rest despite many of the companies being based in USA, are actually made in China, and there lies the problem – the quality of the ceramic inserts.

There is also a lot of hype about the friction capabilities of various ceramics, and quite honestly the differences are so small, that unless you are continually catching super high speed fish like Sailfish or Wahoo, there is little benefit of one grade over the other. I am currently repairing 11 rods from a lodge in Angola, and they are all fitted with aluminium oxide rings – and these rods have literally seen hundreds of Marlin and Tarpon, and still none of the rings are grooved, some have broken rings and I'll be replacing them with Fujis.

So, back to interlines; the hardness factor of the inside of a carbon fibre tube, is way lower than any of the ceramics that are available in rings, so there will be wear issues inside the rod basically from the first fish you catch.

A point in closing, before everyone goes looking at their rods – Fuji actually stamp their name on their rings – few other companies do – it is because they are proud of the quality of their product – and justifiably so – in my humble opinion, we use nothing else, as our reputation rides on the final performance of the rod we build.

A tip for getting thinner line through – just super glue the thin line onto a length of 50lb, and it pushes straight through, then cut the super glue joint.


Hope that helps


Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri

[BMITCH]

Good points jeri? I never even thought about the wear on the inside of those interline rods. The salt water has to have an adverse effect in such that it wears quickly. I was under the impression they used some type of spiral guide or special coating. I don't use mine much anymore. I have also tried the heavier line super glued to the lighter running line. In a word a "hassle". That's the main reason I don't use them any more. Now that you have further informed of the "wear" factor I can tell you this won't be used much. Anyone want to buy ana interline rod....CHEAP!
Thanks, Bob

[RowdyW]

Bob, did you read reply #17 above. If the rod is flared at the tip like a funnel then it is a sabiki bait rod.    Rudy

[Jeri]

Hi All,

Interlines have been used as sabiki rods for quite  a while, and for this purpose they would serve very well, but in other styles of fishing they do have issues - you just have to accept the limitations of some products.

We never siad that tackle manufacturers were going to sell you something that would last for ever???


Cheers from sunny Africa - well th sun is going down now.


Jeri

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

I know a fellow who came across some of the interlink surf rods, he uses an Abu 6500 and it flies

[ossipeter]

I use three interlines: Daiwa Sealine Interline 10-30lbs, 20-50lbs and this one Daiwa Sealine SL-XB561XHF
The best I ever fished in Norway.

[WeSeekHer Rods]

I've gone away from using what some refer to as the spine/spline or whatever and build on the straightest axis.  Good article on Rodbuilding.org that covers that idea after reading it and going to build a blank class at Lamiglas and seeing that several trapazoid shaped pieces of material are rolled around a round tapered cone.  I've also noticed when I used to try and find it a blank can have more than one sweet spot and many times not on the straight axis.

Also on the side for the transition guide, I generally put them on the same side as the reel handle so the rod can be laid down not on the transition guide since it is generally the smallest guide on the rod.  I've noticed no difference in reduction on torque.

Keta was a tough nut to crack.  I had to let him borrow on of my rods to convince him. 

Also when working with customers who are skeptical, I suggest to them that we wrap it spiral and they go fish it for a while and if they don't like the way it fishes bring it back and I'll re-wrap it.  Nobody has taken me up on that yet.

There really is no right or wrong way to build a rod as long as you don't create flat spots due to errors in guide spacing, so if you've got a process you and your customers like that is what counts

[Dynamo]

Spiral wraps: eliminates rod torque, which usually isn't a problem, especially w. smaller conventional rods, but tall guides under a lot of pressure want to fold over, rather like a dog led by a leash, (the line), hope that makes sense. The worse it is the taller the guides and more the pressure. Rods have more or less guides than others because they are designed to do different things than others. A stiff unlimited class rod doesn't need as many guides as a whippy Tarpon rod, because it doesn't bend. The more bend, the more guides needed, unless you are using tall guides, but rod torque is an issue then . That's why test bending your blank is so important. You need to know how and how much the blank bends in order to determine guide placement and the number of them. Hope that helps . cheers

[floating doc]

I've built a few hundred rods, mostly conventional.  I'm not saying this to hold myself out as an expert, but rather to describe a system that worked for me.

I would build the handle and give it at least 48 hours for the epoxy in the reel seat to dry. Then I would tape on the guides, mount a reel and string the guides.

I would tie off the line to something solid (ripped a doorknob off once; don't use your bedroom doorknob with a locked down drag). Then I would put as much flex into the rod as I could handle, while making sure that the line didn't touch the blank anywhere, moving and adding guides as needed.
Sometimes I found that I could remove guides if my spacing was optimal.

Taking it to the next level would require going out and casting the rod, while fine-tuning the guide placement. It honestly never occurred to me to do this, but I've read about it on rodbuilder.org. Like I said, I don't consider myself an expert, just experienced with a system that I found satisfactory to me and my customers.

[WeSeekHer Rods]

I've built a few hundred rods, mostly conventional.  I'm not saying this to hold myself out as an expert, but rather to describe a system that worked for me.

I would build the handle and give it at least 48 hours for the epoxy in the reel seat to dry. Then I would tape on the guides, mount a reel and string the guides.

I would tie off the line to something solid (ripped a doorknob off once; don't use your bedroom doorknob with a locked down drag). Then I would put as much flex into the rod as I could handle, while making sure that the line didn't touch the blank anywhere, moving and adding guides as needed.
Sometimes I found that I could remove guides if my spacing was optimal.

Taking it to the next level would require going out and casting the rod, while fine-tuning the guide placement. It honestly never occurred to me to do this, but I've read about it on rodbuilder.org. Like I said, I don't consider myself an expert, just experienced with a system that I found satisfactory to me and my customers.

I do something simular, but I have a jig mounted on a wall in the shot that holds the handle.  In the reel seat I use another jig that has various size reel spools marked on it.  I use dental rubber bands to hold the guides and run a line from the reel seat thought the guides to the tip.  On that line I hand a 1oz ball.  I take a second line and attach to the tip top only and run that down to my anchor.  Pulling on that line flexes the blank, and move guides accordingly, pull some more and adjust the guides, I do this until the tip is pointing straight down.

[floating doc]

That's a nice system.  I never was that well equipped,  and I was pretty transient during most of the years that I was building rods.

[Jeri]

Hi  Guys,

In looking at some of the replies, it seems that there is almost a need for a tutorial about how rod blanks are made, and this might help cover some of the findings that some folks are coming across.

'WeSeekHer' – difficulty in finding 'spine'.

Rod blanks, especially carbon/graphite rods usually have a base wrapping of fine glass fibre scrim to give the blank 'hoop strength' – to stop the tube from collapsing on itself when the rod bends. This scrim layer is then followed by several layers of carbon cloth, and in more complex blank designs, this can be followed by further layers of differing strength carbon to give strength to differing areas of the rod – stiff butts, powerful mid sections, etc.

What happens in good production factories, is that as each layer ends, they start the next material at exactly the same point, and wrap each layer of material in 'whole layers', such that the entire circle is wrapped in the same number of layers. A bit like wrapping a piece of paper around a pencil – and covering the pencil with 5 wraps – at one point, at the start and finish point  of all the wraps, there is actually 6 layers for a very small area. This is the spine!!!! It will inevitably be stronger/stiffer than the rest of the wrapped area.

In the case of mass production, many companies don't have the precision of wrapping that would be theoretically desirable, and different layers are overlapped or joins on different materials are less than perfect. This is when there appears to be more than one spine, and is usually the sign of a speedily produced blank, where quality control is taking second place to quantity.

Your multiple trapezoidal layers are not getting aligned perfectly during the wrapping process, overlaps or gaps will inevitably result in multiple spines appearing.

Another huge cause of blanks with an inherent desire to twist, is if the last layer or wrap doesn't end up perfectly straight down the line of the blank, but ends up at some other angle. This then pre-loads the blank to a desire to twist under pressure. Lastly, a point to note, is that none of these defects can be seen with the naked eye – you just find them through testing of the blanks. If we come across a supplier of blanks that offers this kind of product, that will be the last time we will use their product.

As said earlier, on rods with a definite spine, and the direction of rolling of the layers (clockwise or anti-clockwise when viewed from the butt end), the 'torque effect' can be designed out by the rod builder – it has nothing to do with height of guides. That said on a poorly made blank, with no regard to spine in its build, high guides might well just exaggerate an existing problem.

Acid Wrapping could be considered a suitable solution on rods that have less than perfectly made blanks. A point worth considering is that only rods for use with conventional reels appear to have the problems that you are experiencing – why don't the same torque problems appear on rods with a fixed spool reel???

If you were to build your conventional reel rods with the spine orientated such that the 'soft' side is down (non rings), then you would have no torque issues, as the rod would in all fish fighting situations be always bending to the line/direction of the least resistance – so the rod would actually be balancing itself, without the need for spiral wrapping of the rings.

We get this factor a lot in the surf rods that we build, as they are very critically functioning in both 'soft' and 'stiff' planes – casting and fish fighting – and any problems like the torque effect would be hugely magnified, as we are using such very long rods, and the majority are just one piece. Get the spine wrong in a 14' long pole, and the torque effect that you mention, would be severely magnified, almost to the point where rods would be pulling round so much in the cast, that it would be near impossible to cast straight, or in the extreme case of severely powerful casting styles actually destroy the blank in the cast. We never have these problems as we build 'on spine'.

Getting back to the more conventional shorter rods that the majority of you guys are using – if the rods were built so that the 'soft' side was down (opposite the rings), then all the torque factor would be eliminated. The biggest problem with a lot of rods is that they aren't built with this consideration, and as soon as the reel seat is glued into position – in any one of 360 possible variations, there is every probability that 359 will be less than perfect, which is why if you were to pick up 10 identical rods from any particular manufacturer, you would find a lot of fine variation in the perceived action and response. The problem in the factories, is that they just don't have time to spend an additional 10 minutes finding the spine on every rod they make, as the total production time of their rods is usually only 20-25 minutes per rod.


Guide Spacing.

This is a huge 'can of worms', and rather than go into the multitude of different theories, the 'pull to curve' method works, as well as 'test casting', however a lot of these theories start and develop in one branch of the sport of fishing, and then are instant assumed to be 'the' theory that works with all other branches of the sport. What they are not taking into consideration, is the vast variations in actual rod blank actions that are available for any given length of rod. In our own work with surf rods, we have just come up with a guide system for one particular blank – 14' long that only needs 5 guides to maximise performance, while a previous design of 14' blank required a minimum of 6 or 7 guides to realise maximum performance. Both blanks were designed initially under the 'pull to curve' method, pulling the blank round fully to 90 degrees – don't try that with all rod blanks please!!!

The fact is that once you have found a particular spacing scheme and number of guides for one particular blank design/model, keep it on file, but don't take it for certain that a similar rod will be the same.

The point of an earlier contribution about harmonics of the line coming off the reel with conventional reels, is very critical with any form of casting rod. The line comes off the reel in an upward arc, which is then pulled down towards the rod by the first ring – this is the start of a sine wave of line action, as the line progresses along the length of the rod. The frequency of the sine wave is actually reducing until it is to all effect straight – but to ignore that first development of the sine wave of line coming off the reel is a mistake, and here the actual size of the reel makes a lot of difference in spacing of the first guide. By working with the sine wave principle, we get superior casting distances, way over any of our competitors, and we are talking in casting distances of in excess of 4-500 feet!

There is a lot of science that we all accept in the reels that we use, and the engineering tolerances – why do folks believe that there isn't that much or more in the rods that they are using?

Hope this hasn't been too confusing – we have over the last 30 years that I have been building rods, found that there are no quick answers, or that previous schemes will work. That isn't in anyway a brag – but an admission that we are still learning new things and approaches to how good rods can be built; we still haven't come up with a single scheme that works for everything – and there is a need to continually learn.

'Dynamo', I would very respectfully suggest that there are no 'global answers or statements' when it comes to the design of rods. 'Unlimited' rods are not designed to bend to 90 degrees, if they were because the fishing situation dictated so, then many more guides would be necessary – probably as many as on a high class Bass rod – up to 10 or 11 guides?

In final question this discussion about 'spiral wrapped' rods – if it is the ultimate solution and offers so many benefits –why haven't all the main manufacturers started building their rods in this fashion?? – Or it is it just a solution to a poor blank?



Cheers from sunny Africa

Jeri