sealine 400/450h

Started by alantani, December 07, 2008, 04:17:56 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

steelfish

Quote from: Porthos on October 29, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
...........
Pluging in the drag value set at full spool, Fh =  (5/3) x 14 lbs = 23.33 lbs drag (and this is before adding in the friction of the line in the water).

If the fish ran half the line straight out and stays horizontal, no biggie, you'll get 20 lbs drag and more...but if it also goes every which way AND down, good luck with that as you stated.

ayyayaya caramba !!  that quoted part is the only one I could understood but thats enough to tell my friend to use the reel as is and test it.
#20 should be enough for 80% of the normal fisheries in my zone.

thanks
The Baja Guy

Porthos

#31
Quote from: steelfish on October 29, 2020, 06:05:08 PM
ayyayaya caramba !!  that quoted part is the only one I could understood but thats enough to tell my friend to use the reel as is and test it.
#20 should be enough for 80% of the normal fisheries in my zone.
thanks


I went down to the garage, buttoned down the drag on one of my 5-stack 400H's pretty tight by hand, and...YIKES!...the straight pull read 36lb on the spring scale. Definite danger zone for shredding the main gear and other things.

steelfish

Quote from: Porthos on October 29, 2020, 06:08:15 PM
Quote from: steelfish on October 29, 2020, 06:05:08 PM
ayyayaya caramba !!  that quoted part is the only one I could understood but thats enough to tell my friend to use the reel as is and test it.
#20 should be enough for 80% of the normal fisheries in my zone.
thanks


I went down to the garage, buttoned down the drag on one of my 5-stack 400H's pretty tight by hand, and...YIKES!...the straight pull read 36lb on the spring scale. Definite danger zone for shredding the main gear and other things.

thanks buddy,that give me enough material to tell my friend if 15-20# arent enough then the only other option is the BY 5+1 set
The Baja Guy

jurelometer

Quote from: Porthos on October 29, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: steelfish on October 27, 2020, 07:44:54 PM...but I dont think it will jump from 14# to 20# just for having 1/2 spool of line in the water...

Applying the principle of levers, force of "load" (Fl) times length of "load" arm (Ll) = force of "effort" (Fe) times length of "effort" arm (Le).

Written out mathematically, Fl x Ll = Fe x Le

Replace "load" with "half" or "h" for 1/2 spool: and "effort" with "full"  or "f" for full spool.

Fh x Lh = Ff x Lf

Lf will be the radius from the center of the spool to the top-of-the line. For this analysis, divide this radius into fifths so that 1/5 is for the radius of an empty spool, 4/5 is the remaining radius to top-of-line of a full spool. If "...1/2 spool of line in water..." means half of the 4/5, then what's left is 2/5 + 1/5 or 3/5 of the original radius.

Now the equation becomes Fh x (3/5)Lf = Ff x Lf for half-the-spool left. Divide both sides by (3/5)Lf and you get:

Fh = (Ff x Lf) / (3/5)Lf

...and this simplifies to Fh = (5/3)Ff

Pluging in the drag value set at full spool, Fh =  (5/3) x 14 lbs = 23.33 lbs drag (and this is before adding in the friction of the line in the water).

If the fish ran half the line straight out and stays horizontal, no biggie, you'll get 20 lbs drag and more...but if it also goes every which way AND down, good luck with that as you stated.



If you will permit me to describe the math from a different angle:

I slept through most of physics, but I still think  this might be better dealt with in terms of simple torque. Diving into lever arm vs effort arm (where you are pushing on the lever), makes this a bit trickier to follow, and obscures how to calculate torque, which is really the useful value. Because what we are dealing with here is torque (rotary motion), and not just a lever.

Also: Half full is ambiguous.  Do me mean half of the distance from arbor to fill line, or half the line used to fill the reel?
-----

All we are really doing is using   the ratio of the diameters  to adjust the drag measured at one of the diameters.

For example: let's assume that half full means half of the line by distance.  We estimate that half full diameter is 2 inches  and full diameter is at 3 inches.  We measure the drag at full diameter to be 10 lbs.

Full diameter: 3 inch
Half full diameter: 2 inch
Drag setting at full diameter : 10 lbs.

Drag at half  full  (of line) =  (3/2) *10 =15 lbs

Easy peasy.

To get just a tiny bit more complicated, but much more useful:

If we calculate the torque in  pound inches  from any single drag/fill level combo, we can calculate what the drag will be at any  fill level.  Once we have the torque, it becomes a constant that simply we multiply by the radius at a desired fill level. 

For example,  using the same settings as above, we measured the drag at 1.5 in radius ( half of  3 inch diameter) to be 10 lbs. 

Torque = 10 lbs * 1.5 inch , or 15 pound inches of torque.   

For this example reel  at this example drag setting multiply any  fill radius  by 15, and you will have the drag at that fill level.

1 inch radius * 15 lbs torque = 15 lbs drag.

Still easy peasy.

Fo those of you keeping score at home, this illustrates another peculiarity of those extra narrow reels you all are so fond of.  The narrower the spool, the  more the drag increases for each yard of line that leaves the spool.




Regarding the  Baja gulf grouper: This species is listed as endangered. The scientists probably have a more accurate  population estimate on this species  than most because it stays resident in shallow water and is kind of hard to miss due to its size and lack of shyness.  I believe it might still be legal to catch in Mexico, so  I am not making any judgement  about  a citizen  engaged in an entirely legal activity in their own country, but I felt it is worth mentioning so that folks can make an informed decision about whether they chose to target and/or keep this species.   It would be nice to see them come back like the Goliath grouper in Florida. 

-J

Porthos

Quote from: jurelometer on October 29, 2020, 08:35:45 PM
If you will permit me to describe the math from a different angle...

My sense is that Alex has already written both of us off as nerdy geeks, and has gone off to Happy Hour at his favorite cantina for margaritas, chips, and salsa...maybe even Taco Thursdays.

steelfish

#35
Quote from: jurelometer on October 29, 2020, 08:35:45 PM
Regarding the  Baja gulf grouper: This species is listed as endangered. The scientists probably have a more accurate  population estimate on this species  than most because it stays resident in shallow water and is kind of hard to miss due to its size and lack of shyness.  I believe it might still be legal to catch in Mexico, so  I am not making any judgement  about  a citizen  engaged in an entirely legal activity in their own country, but I felt it is worth mentioning so that folks can make an informed decision about whether they chose to target and/or keep this species.   It would be nice to see them come back like the Goliath grouper in Florida.  
-J

nice from you to mentioning it, I have never targeted Gulf grouper, but a biga$$ YT could pull easily more than 15# of drag on a tug-0-war fight, thats why I said, that 15# is enough for 80% of the local fisheries but for a big YT from "Bay of los Angeles" area in Baja thats not enough, now, if a friend or customer want a 30# od drag reel well, I will try to install the upgrades for that, seems thar all of AT.com (me included) want to upgrade reels to make them stronger that doesnt mean we are after thos big groupers.

our Black bass grouper (which is a giant grouper) is protected by law but sadly I see many pics of those fish been fished regulary in the south Baja without any fine or penalty to the charter or the fisherman, anyway, that is going into a "spiny path" where the govertment seems to dont care and there is not much we can do but to follow the rules and try to just keep what you will eat in the short time, avoiding too young and too old fish, and if a gulf grouper is healthy by the time I have it on the boat I try to sending back to the water but as you know, sometimes the have the trolling lure too deep  on it throt, IMO  Leopard grouper is better on the table and even those fish I try to just keep few of them not all that bite the lure.


The Baja Guy

day0ne

David


"Lately it occurs to me: What a long, strange trip it's been." - R. Hunter

jurelometer

Thanks for the update on on the groupers.  I just learned something.    I thought that the only giant grouper found in the sea of Cortez was the Gulf Grouper, Mycteroperca jordani.

But it turns out there is also the Pacific Goliath Grouper, Epinephelus quinquefasciatus

And in the Northern part of the sea of Cortez, wher you reside, there is a small pocket of Black Sea Bass, Stereolepis gigas, which are otherwise  found on the northern Pacific coast  (and SoCal USA)

All of these rare giant shallow water groupers are in the same boat.  Too easy to get picked off by spear fishers by the time the reach reproductive size, and targeted fishing at the spawning aggregations.  Only dedicated (and expensive) enforcement can save them. 

And you also have a patch of Broomtail Grouper, Mycteroperca xenarcha in the northern sea of Cortez.  Not quite a giant, but still get over 100 lbs.  These are a bit more plentiful.

Of course the local pangeros know all this and more...

I couldn't  find anything about the giant grouper species being protected in the Conapesca regulation guide, other than general bag limits, and a specific bag limit of two  :o :( on the gulf grouper.

Sorry for taking us off topic, but this unusual species stuff has always been fascinating to me.

-J

gstours

Hey Alex I may be able to help your diawa 400 drag, and if you're patient cause it's winter coming in Alaska,  that means shop time.  Shop time is when your not fishing 🎣 right?
   I've got some posts in diawa reels here waay back to give you more information.
I've doubled dogs , and made hex drags For my 300,400,and 600  sealine reels and have had no problems.   The parts are custom made.  Not easily bought or replaced.  That's a negative mabee for your people,   Butt it's the path to improving those reels.....
  The least you can do is get .020-.025 keyed drag washers and same thickness eared washers to get more working surfaces. Maybe these can be supplied by Brian?   I've made these from sst sheet. But more costly...
  If you're interested in more than 25 pounds of drag for the 400and 600 sealine you can double that if you use a hex drag gear ⚙️ ,  butt now you have to make some hex cf washers, and use some little bit smaller metal washers,  not a big deal of course.   Butt custom... good luck 👍,   Stay in touch.    🐟

MarkT

I've caught gulf or olive grouper on the Ridge, they're pretty easy to come by, I caught a 103# last year that is still very tasty. I'm hoping for another one in the next couple of weeks.
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

steelfish

Quote from: gstours on November 01, 2020, 02:41:55 AM
Hey Alex I may be able to help your diawa 400 drag, and if you're patient cause it's winter coming in Alaska,  that means shop time.  Shop time is when your not fishing 🎣 right?
   I've got some posts in diawa reels here waay back to give you more information.
I've doubled dogs , and made hex drags For my 300,400,and 600  sealine reels and have had no problems.   The parts are custom made.  Not easily bought or replaced.  That's a negative mabee for your people,   Butt it's the path to improving those reels.....
  The least you can do is get .020-.025 keyed drag washers and same thickness eared washers to get more working surfaces. Maybe these can be supplied by Brian?   I've made these from sst sheet. But more costly...
  If you're interested in more than 25 pounds of drag for the 400and 600 sealine you can double that if you use a hex drag gear ⚙️ ,  butt now you have to make some hex cf washers, and use some little bit smaller metal washers,  not a big deal of course.   Butt custom... good luck 👍,   Stay in touch.    🐟

thanks Gary, I found out your thread on impoving the drags on the 350h and 400h reels, that milling work on the main gear goes beyong my paygrade but I will look for a local place that might do it for me, this is a reel that worth improving since if you take care of it it could be passed to your grand grand childrens and beyong
The Baja Guy

steelfish

Quote from: day0ne on October 30, 2020, 05:05:16 AM
You can do this with the 400/450 also.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4783.0

thanks David, I will look at the metal washers on the 113h to compared them vs the ones for the 400h, I surely compared them and they were not equal, but never though on modify them to fit, so, not sure if its doable but I will look at it later during this week.

The Baja Guy

day0ne

Quote from: steelfish on November 02, 2020, 07:46:05 PM
Quote from: day0ne on October 30, 2020, 05:05:16 AM
You can do this with the 400/450 also.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4783.0

thanks David, I will look at the metal washers on the 113h to compared them vs the ones for the 400h, I surely compared them and they were not equal, but never though on modify them to fit, so, not sure if its doable but I will look at it later during this week.



Don't use the 113h washers, use 400h washers with thin smoothdrag carbontex washers.
David


"Lately it occurs to me: What a long, strange trip it's been." - R. Hunter

steelfish

Quote from: day0ne on November 02, 2020, 08:41:48 PM
Quote from: steelfish on November 02, 2020, 07:46:05 PM
Quote from: day0ne on October 30, 2020, 05:05:16 AM
You can do this with the 400/450 also.

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4783.0

thanks David, I will look at the metal washers on the 113h to compared them vs the ones for the 400h, I surely compared them and they were not equal, but never though on modify them to fit, so, not sure if its doable but I will look at it later during this week.



Don't use the 113h washers, use 400h washers with thin smoothdrag carbontex washers.

I recall 113h metal washers have bigger holes, well this drags me to my initial problem of finding extra 400h eared and keyed washers for 3 400h reels.

I posted this some weeks ago https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=31988.0
The Baja Guy