Belleville Washers on Drags

Started by Newell Nut, October 10, 2013, 01:33:00 PM

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Newell Nut

What is the value of the Belleville washer on top of a drag stack?

I ask this question in regard to all conventional reels and because I know my Newells with the 4 stack drag systems work fantastic and they were designed without a Belleville washer on the drag stack. They were designed with a heavy flat surface on the drag spacer bushing that presses against the drag stack. If is works so well then why do other reels have Belleville washers on the drag stack?

Bryan Young

Bellevilles help for lighter adjustment and drag setting.  It also acts like a spring in those situations for smoother operation as since there are more high and low points in the drag at lower, uncompressed drag settings.
:D I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. :D

bluefish69

N N

That solid peice of S S was in the early Newell's they stopped that for Cost. The Bevelle washers are cheaper as Bryan said. If you check on McMaster - Carr it tells you how much pressure it takes to compress them. You had no small adjustment with the solid Sleeve only through the Star.

Mike
I have not failed.  I just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

Newell Nut

Mike

You bring up another question. Speaking of the McMaster bellevilles, what is the ideal compression poundage to shop for? Who knows that answer? I have collapsed a factory Belleville in my 631 and I replaced it with a 900 lb one. Ain't no way that thing will budge with a 4" OD star. I just had that hooked to a 40 lb dumbbell a few minutes ago and the drag slips just before the dumbbell clears the ground. The star is maxed out at that point too. 100 lb class Seeker Hercules so no worries for the rod.
A softer Belleville may have some nice benefits but how soft is the question or what poundage to compress?

Dwight

Bryan Young

Hi Dwight, it's trial and error for me.  Even when replacing bellevilles in lever drag reels.
:D I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. :D

Newell Nut

I have played around with the wavy springs between the star and drag bushing for a little more sensitivity and it works but may try a few different weights in the bellevilles. I have a beast in my 631 right now and I would like a little more range. Now I go from 15 to almost 40 in a half a turn of the star but with 100 lb momoi why should I care right?

Bunnlevel Sharker

I jacked up the belivilles on my 4/0 and get 34lbs......it starts getting choppy after 30, way to much for king macks, maybe a grouper reel. Gave me the perfect lighter adjustment I wanted though
Grayson Lanier

eguinn

#7
 Just a few thoughts on this, as far as Newells go one thing I do is to change the amount of ramp up by changing the length of the Top Hats or spacing sleeves of different lengths, you know that they made 2 different lengths of them,the shorter Top Hat is mostly used on the P series reels, the longer Top Hat is used on the blackie series. This was done because of the thickness of the sideplates with the P series having a thinner sideplate than the Blackies. That being said you can change the ramp up by using thicker (.040) or thinner (020) 3-18 washers. My thoughts on the amount of ramp up are this, I don't like having my reel set up where you have  no drag when the star is completely backed off, or you have to turn the star 1/2 a turn to barely git a tiny bit of drag pressure, why would you want that, you are not going to fish with a drag setting like that unless you are fishing for Trout. So I like to have just a little bit of pressure on the star with it backed all the way off where I can pull line off the reel by hand but easily but still feel some drag pressure on the line. This will vary a little bit depending on what I intend to use the reel for, example on a jig fishing reel I like a more aggressive ramp because I'm not going to use the lighter drag settings so much, on a reel set up to for fishing bait I might want a little more progressive ramp up because I'm going to use a wider range of drag settings depending on what I'm fishing for & the bait I'm using. On bigger fish like fishing Seabass or Yellows with sguid or mackeral for bait I like a more aggressive ramp up because if the fish Kelps me I might have to back off the drag to get him to swim out of the kelp & once he is out I crank the drag back up & put the heat back on him. On fish like these I like to go from 0 to 100 mph in a short distance or 1 turn of the star. Some of my jig & heavy bait reels have a ramp that goes from being able to pull line off the spool with a lite pressure to a almost fully locked spool in 1 complete turn of the star. These are usually 3/0 to 4/0 sized reels, using 40# line or higher. Some of my bait reels  have a more progressive ramp. I'll use these reels for fishing Tuna or Bass. A lot of how you set up your drag I believe depends on what & how you are going to use the reel for, the size of the reel & the kind of rod you have it mounted on. Sometimes I will use belville washers in my reels to get a more sensitive or progressive drag in some of my bait reels. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that one way or the other is the complete answer or right or wrong, these are just some thoughts & how I set up some of my reels. Ed

Tightlines667

Thanks for sharing.

I do alot of trial and error with different configurations, #s, and thickness as well as shining to get a 'well centered' spool with good free spool, that still gives a favorable drag curve.  I mostly work on larger trolling lever drags, so the reel's design pretty much dictates the desired drag curve.  Personally I have done alot of light line fishing and prefer a springy drag that rams up slowly and operates really smooth at lower settings.  Really you just want the drag curve sweet spot where you typically fish your reel.  Unfortunately it seems like alot of the reels capable of performing really well at the high end, often ramp up fast (can be changed by modified the cam), and may lack smooth low end performance. Some models are a little finicky when it comes to good free spool.  Havn't really got it all figured out yet, but trial & error and testing can give you the characteristics that maximize the performance characteristics of your reel to the line type and style of fishing the reel is going to be primarily used for.

  I'm still learning.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B

think of it as the "hydraulic" part of the system. my 2 cents...

Tightlines667

In response to a recent question regarding the effects of changing Belleville config. I gave the following response...

As far as your other question regarding changing the drag curve by modifying the number, size and orientation of Belleville washers goes...

I'd recommend checking out the penn international and Shimano Tiagra manuals.  They show different drag curves with different configs.  There's another thread on this site that addresses the issue as well.  You can not change how fast the cam ramps up the drag with movement of the lever (at least not w/o modifying/replacing the cam, but playing with Bellevilles can give you different drag curves.  You need to ensure that the overall stack thickness stays near stock, and generally speaking..softer/thinner/lighter washers arranged oposing one another ...I.e

)(
()
)()
)()(
()()
())
)))
((()
(())
))))
)()()
(()()
(((()
((())
)))))
*Roughly from most springy to stiffest (though I may have this wrong as it is a bit of a guess)
will give a more easily compressed/springer stack.  This generally trasnlates to a more gradual ramp up at lower drag settings.  You can mix and match heavy and light spring washers to give even more options.

I think the idea is to tune the reel to where you will be fishing it at (I.e. Find the Max effective drag setting at strike before loss of freespool.. Then when the reel is pushed to sunset all Bellevilles should be fully compressed (or nearly so).  Also, spacing should be such that backing the preset button off all of the way, and just moving the lever forward from freespool should give just a very small amount of drag.  Typically max effective drag setting is around where the preset knob is adjusted half way in.  This depends on the reel though.  You also want the spacing so the gears line up properly. 

So if you use ()() all light...drag will ramp up slowly until fully compressed then max out quickly.  If you use ()() light/light/heavy/heavy the drag will start ramping up slowly then ramp up more rapidly at higher drag settings.
()() light/heavy/heavy/light is somewhere in between with a slightly steeper ramp up throughout.  The (()) will give a steep ramp up transitioning to a very steep.  ((((( will give a very steep ramp up.  When I talk about ramp up I mean lbs of drag within the given range.  The ramp on the cam actually determines how much absolute compression the Bellevilless will undergo as the lever is moved.  But the orientation/#/and thickness if the washers determines how much force is transferred to the drag at a given compression level.  Springier stacks transfer less force as they are compressed then stiffer stacks.  The drag spring also plays a role in how much force is transferred to the drag disc..though it's primary purpose is to help maintain even pressure on the ridgid discs, and help maintain the drag curve when backing off pressure.  A stronger/heavier spring here can help when the reel is being fished at higher drag settings then originally designed for. 

At least that's they way I understand it right now.  You can play around with different configs, and test the effects on your reel's curve for yourself.  Hope that helps?
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

steelfish

Quote from: Newell Nut on October 10, 2013, 01:33:00 PM
What is the value of the Belleville washer on top of a drag stack?


I had that same question too.

some of the penn reels I recieve for service come with a beneville washer on top and others reels dont, but this have clear most of my doubts
The Baja Guy

alantani

for star drag reels, right?  i find that you can get by without.  but if you have one, use it. 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

steelfish

#13
Quote from: alantani on September 05, 2017, 01:23:04 AM
for star drag reels, right?  i find that you can get by without.  but if you have one, use it.  

My bad, yes I was talking about Penn star drag reels

Gotcha, gracias jefe
The Baja Guy