Anti Reverse...Failure or Functiion?

[sundaytrucka]

I have been debating this with people at work....A reel with a anti-reverse bearing and one or two back-up dogs, when at higher drag settings the handle moves backwards to where the dog(s) engaged.

Now, is this a failure of the anti-reverse bearing, or a function of design allowing that ARB to give and the dogs kick in, the AR is still instant after this situation occurs.

What do you guys think?

-Scott

[akfish]

It's a failure. The AR bearing should never allow the handle to turn backward. If it does and the dogs catch, consider yourself lucky -- but replace the AR bearing asap.

[Keta]

When exceding the capacity of anything the failure is not due to the part.

[Three se7ens]

Anti-reverse bearings are only rated to handle a certain torque before they slip.  They work pretty well on spinning reels, but on conventional reels, the torque the bearing sees is multiplied by the gear ratio.  So the same bearing that may hold 30 lbs of drag on a spinning reel may have trouble holding 10 lbs on a conventional reel. 

[Ron Jones]

I concur. If a backup system is engaged, then the primary system has failed or has been taken off line. However, in this situation I am not certain that a replacement is in order. If the bearing's operating range was exceeded but it still operates normally at the design operating range, it is still operating normally.

Personally, I hate the things. This is one of the reasons, I just don't see them being as strong as the dogs.
Ron

[sundaytrucka]

That is why I ask, when this occurs the AR bearing is usually replaced, but I feel it is a part of the expected function, being AR bearings have an expected "fail" point, and then dogs kick in. To myself, as Ron mentioned, if the AR engages normal operation after this instance occurs it is a safe function, and feel it has a good balance between the AR bearings "give" point and back-up dog engagement.

-Scott

[cbar45]

The question I would ask, for any given reel, is does the dog (or dogs) kick in before or after torque capacity of the ARB has been reached?

As mentioned, on some reels the ARB will "give" a little--but will not slip--before the dog kicks in. Suppose the ARB is rated to 18 lbs. of drag, and the dog kicks in at 15 lb. In this case the dog acts as a backup lending additional support to the ARB, i.e. it comes into play before ARB capacity is reached.

On other reels the dog kicks in after the ARB completely slips. In this case the dog acts as solely as a fail-safe, coming into play only after ARB capacity has been reached and exceeded.

I believe ARB springs are just like any other part in that they can be irreparably damaged if continually stressed beyond their limits. Any instance of the ARB slipping completely places unnecessary stress on those springs. In contrast, a reel with the dog set to kick in before ARB capacity is reached, balances the excess stress between two components--a design good for the life of both (imho).

Chad

[sundaytrucka]

The question I would ask, for any given reel, is does the dog (or dogs) kick in before or after torque capacity of the ARB has been reached?

As mentioned, on some reels the ARB will "give" a little--but will not slip--before the dog kicks in. Suppose the ARB is rated to 18 lbs. of drag, and the dog kicks in at 15 lb. In this case the dog acts as additional support for the ARB, i.e. it comes into play before ARB capacity is reached.

On other reels the dog kicks in after the ARB completely slips. In this case the dog acts as a fail-safe, coming into play only after ARB capacity has been reached and exceeded.

I believe ARB springs are just like any other part in that they can be irreparably damaged if continually stressed beyond their limits. Any instance of the ARB slipping completely places unnecessary stress on those springs. In contrast, a reel with the dog set to kick in before ARB capacity is reached, balances the excess stress between two components--a design good for the life of both (imho).

Chad

Well put Chad.  I like your assessment of the ARB.

-Scott

[BMITCH]

Not a big fan of the ARB's. Once they fail aren't they toast?

[handi2]

I wouldn't call it a failure when the torque exceeds the rating on the bearing. This why they put the dogs in. With normal fishing situations the handle should not move backwards.


If you can move it back by hand then it's a failure. Most all Torium and Trinidad reels I can force the handle back. The ARB used in those reels aren't very strong.

[day0ne]

The question I would ask, for any given reel, is does the dog (or dogs) kick in before or after torque capacity of the ARB has been reached?

As mentioned, on some reels the ARB will "give" a little--but will not slip--before the dog kicks in. Suppose the ARB is rated to 18 lbs. of drag, and the dog kicks in at 15 lb. In this case the dog acts as a backup lending additional support to the ARB, i.e. it comes into play before ARB capacity is reached.

On other reels the dog kicks in after the ARB completely slips. In this case the dog acts as solely as a fail-safe, coming into play only after ARB capacity has been reached and exceeded.

I believe ARB springs are just like any other part in that they can be irreparably damaged if continually stressed beyond their limits. Any instance of the ARB slipping completely places unnecessary stress on those springs. In contrast, a reel with the dog set to kick in before ARB capacity is reached, balances the excess stress between two components--a design good for the life of both (imho).

Chad

The only problem with this is the dogs don't "kick in" at a certain drag, they engage when the gear sleeve moves backward a certain distance. The ARB always engages first and the dogs come into play when the ARB slips for what ever reason.

[cbar45]

The question I would ask, for any given reel, is does the dog (or dogs) kick in before or after torque capacity of the ARB has been reached?

As mentioned, on some reels the ARB will "give" a little--but will not slip--before the dog kicks in. Suppose the ARB is rated to 18 lbs. of drag, and the dog kicks in at 15 lb. In this case the dog acts as a backup lending additional support to the ARB, i.e. it comes into play before ARB capacity is reached.

On other reels the dog kicks in after the ARB completely slips. In this case the dog acts as solely as a fail-safe, coming into play only after ARB capacity has been reached and exceeded.

I believe ARB springs are just like any other part in that they can be irreparably damaged if continually stressed beyond their limits. Any instance of the ARB slipping completely places unnecessary stress on those springs. In contrast, a reel with the dog set to kick in before ARB capacity is reached, balances the excess stress between two components--a design good for the life of both (imho).

Chad

The only problem with this is the dogs don't "kick in" at a certain drag, they engage when the gear sleeve moves backward a certain distance. The ARB always engages first and the dogs come into play when the ARB slips for what ever reason.

On some reels the ARB does not need to slip in order for the backup dog/s to come into play.

This is the "give" I was referring to in my previous post.

To put it another way, the ARB has just enough elasticity to allow its sleeve to move a tiny bit backwards--without slipping--before the dog/s engage.

On other reels as you describe, the dog/s engage only AFTER the sleeve has moved backwards enough to slip.

Regardless of setup, the dog/s still engage after a certain amount of drag places enough torque on the ARB sleeve and springs.

Chad

[Tiddlerbasher]

Try cleaning it and lube with a drop of CorrosionX. Some ARBs are very fussy about lubes. A Shimano spinner I have will only work dry
If it has been greased there is a good chance it will slip.

[SoCalAngler]

IMO if the dog/dogs do in fact come into play then the ARB has either failed or exceeded it's load capacity,  it may a failure of the ARB. If fishing too much drag for the reel, well thats the owners fault, if with in the reels specs than thats a manufactures issue.

You never know what the owner is fishing as far as drag, and bearings can fail, so a replacement of the ARB should happen. Also of the dog/dogs look damaged those should be replaced as well. But I have noticed that Okuma states a little higher drag rating on their smaller reels than maybe should be fished on them.   

That's what makes it hard to tell why the ARB failed in some reels. Were the reels over fished or were the design limits set too high?

[Alto Mare]

Or at times its just a crappy ARB .