Building a drag star

[Shark Hunter]

That is exactly why I am not willing to try. With a stainless sleeve and star. The heat buildup will be tremendous for the type of fishing I do. I'm after a 200 to 600 pound fish that is going to really test the abilities of my Old Senators. I know from my Dirt Bike days, that stainless bolts and nuts weld themselves together with heat. For the average fisherman, these ss stars will be fine.
The prototype ss sleeves that Tom Hyrinuk made me to test out on my 12 and 14/0s will be tested in a few short weeks. I'm not ready to gamble these with SS Stars on them, because if I do get the Shark I seek, The Brass star will not gall itself to the sleeve.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

If the price can be held to no more than $25 it will prove to be affordable.

i agree and you'll probably sell more...

[erikpowell]

Stainless is prone to galling, but I don't think the right circumstances exist for it to be a problem here. Friction can build up a tremendous about of heat in stainless, and since stainless is such a poor conductor of heat, it can't dissipate it quickly. That heat build up causes parts to basically weld themselves together. But with a drag star, adjustments are typically small and slow, not to mention it's probably going to be greased.

Thanks for the beta Adam. I'm seeing a picture now..
but I have questions

As I understand, galling is caused by friction and the heat generated by that friction.... right?

So, if you take away the friction.... i.e.: the star is not even moving for 99% of a fight... i.e.  scale your drag, set and forget.
                                                     (can any man twist a star fast enough to create that kind of friction anyway? )
And are left with only the heat...... heat applied to an effectively stationary star.... and from a secondary source                                                
                                               ("scalding" heat, not "melting" heat)
                                               (star maybe nudging back and forth every now and then...effectively speaking)

Should galling even be a concern?  and if so, how and why? Has it failed in this application before?

Which leads me to another easy question..

When my stock brass star is too hot to touch with bare hands... will stainless steel be hotter, cooler, or the same?

And if heat is such a factor, while we're at the drawing board here...

How about looking into like an "aero star" design..with cutouts, or vanes, ribs, or fins to help shed heat
there could be bigger "paddles" instead of little fingers, affording more room for cutouts...an extreme would be shamrock, or a 4 leaf clover

Anybody who's fought big fish on metal star drags has scorched their fingers and had to reach for gloves more than once.
It'd be cool if somebody could tout "Our stars run cooler" or "Bare hander"  

Cheers Ya'll

[Mandelstam]

After reading up some on galling I've understood that hardened steel is very resistant to galling. Is that an option, to harden the star and sleeve? Maybe it's just not worth it as it's another step in the manufacturing process that has to be paid for by the customers in the long run.

Very nice work though Adam!


Karl

[Irish Jigger]

Most of us  appear to prefer 316ss for its anti corrosive properties.
Unfortunately 316 cannot be through hardened.
This was proven on Sal's testing of 5:1 ratio 316ss pinions  recently which failed under load.

Has anyone actually stripped buttress threaded Star/Sleeves on their original Penn's?

[Three se7ens]

Galling is primarily a concern with the softer stainless alloys such as 316 and 304.  Harder alloys are less prone to galling, but 316 can only be work hardened.

Using formed threads instead of cut threads would increase the hardness at the threads, and reduce the tendency to gall.

I still don't think it will be an issue here though.

Hard chrome over heat treated 4130 would make an indestructible star and/or sleeve. It could have 5-6 times the strength of 316, and the hard chrome would give it corrision protection, low friction on the threads, and a Rockwell C hardness in the upper 60's.

[Keta]

I wish I didn't sell the Inconel and Hasteloy scrap I had, these are hard to work but better material than SS.  I have a Hasteloy scallop bar that does not flex or chip but I had to make it on a belt sander.

[jurelometer]

Stainless is prone to galling, but I don't think the right circumstances exist for it to be a problem here. Friction can build up a tremendous about of heat in stainless, and since stainless is such a poor conductor of heat, it can't dissipate it quickly. That heat build up causes parts to basically weld themselves together. But with a drag star, adjustments are typically small and slow, not to mention it's probably going to be greased.

Thanks for the beta Adam. I'm seeing a picture now..
but I have questions

As I understand, galling is caused by friction and the heat generated by that friction.... right?

So, if you take away the friction.... i.e.: the star is not even moving for 99% of a fight... i.e.  scale your drag, set and forget.
                                                     (can any man twist a star fast enough to create that kind of friction anyway? )
And are left with only the heat...... heat applied to an effectively stationary star.... and from a secondary source                                                
                                               ("scalding" heat, not "melting" heat)
                                               (star maybe nudging back and forth every now and then...effectively speaking)

Should galling even be a concern?  and if so, how and why? Has it failed in this application before?

Which leads me to another easy question..

When my stock brass star is too hot to touch with bare hands... will stainless steel be hotter, cooler, or the same?

And if heat is such a factor, while we're at the drawing board here...

How about looking into like an "aero star" design..with cutouts, or vanes, ribs, or fins to help shed heat
there could be bigger "paddles" instead of little fingers, affording more room for cutouts...an extreme would be shamrock, or a 4 leaf clover

Anybody who's fought big fish on metal star drags has scorched their fingers and had to reach for gloves more than once.
It'd be cool if somebody could tout "Our stars run cooler" or "Bare hander"  

Cheers Ya'll

Conduction is a function of surface area,  mass,  temperature  and  material conductity.  Those giant brass slabs on the bigg senators have a lot of mass, but brass is a much better conductor than stainless.  Aluminum is probably the best practical material in terms of conduction, but would  require an insert of a stronger metal to avoid stripping threads.  Titanium is just about as bad a conductor as stainless.   To determine how much heat could be dissipated by a star,  we would need tho plug the relative temperature (drag to air), surface area, thickness and material conductivity number in the Fourier calculations.   If a star could be designed that would dissipate a useful amount of heat,  then you would have to figure out how much heat could be transferred from the drag stack through the washers/spacers and up to the star.

This does lead down an interesting path.  Theoretically, thinner drag washers should be better, esp if you are using stainless.  a brass main gear and sleeve is better for heat dissipation (Although not as strong as stainless).  If you could figure out how to get the heat up to it, an aluminum crank arm would dissipate a bunch more heat  than a star.   Increasing the surface area on the main gear (holes).  Increasing the air space and flow around the main gear...

But how much is drag heat a real issue in a properly maintained Senator with carbon fiber drags?  My experience with higher drag is limited to marlin and medium grade tuna at 20 lbs drag on a 114HLW.  Gotten half way down the spool relatively quickly with no smoke or heat on the star?

BTW I also would be surprised to find galling as an issue on stainless stars.  There are not many threads, the fit is not super tight, they are turned slowly under hand pressure, and lubricated. Could make them out of brass and powder coat them though...

[Dominick]

I owned a TR-6 and had to rebuild the rear hubs a couple of times.  Galling was an issue but there was much heat generated in the wheel.  The second time I had to take them apart they came apart easily because I used anti-cease where the parts were joined.  I do not see galling an issue in this type use.  I am willing to test it out.  I am waiting for one to put on the tank and it is going with me to Baja in June.  Dominick

[Shark Hunter]

TR-6? Was that your snaggin' wagon Dominick?  I hope Adam does good on this Venture, I just don't want to see him make a bunch of custom stars and be stuck with them like Dom's Frames.
Everbody wants a piece of the action, but when its said and done, High priced parts are hard to move.
I thought they would fly of the shelves. 30 of them did. Then it came to a screeching halt. There are only so many Reel Heads willing to fork over $100 for a hot rod part.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

...anti-cease...

why didn't i think of that, great idea Dominick! i apply Permatex anti-seize lubricant on spark plugs' thread before installation to prevent exactly these; seizing, galling and corrosion.

[Keta]

Make sure it's not metal bearing anti-seize, that causes electrolysis issues around saltwater.

[Three se7ens]

TR-6? Was that your snaggin' wagon Dominick?  I hope Adam does good on this Venture, I just don't want to see him make a bunch of custom stars and be stuck with them like Dom's Frames.
Everbody wants a piece of the action, but when its said and done, High priced parts are hard to move.
I thought they would fly of the shelves. 30 of them did. Then it came to a screeching halt. There are only so many Reel Heads willing to fork over $100 for a hot rod part.

I don't have to commit to a minimum quantity on these, so it's not like I'm going to be stuck with a bunch of parts.  But more demand does help keep the price down.

I think that just grease is the way to go.  It's good practice whether you have stainless or brass parts anyways.

[Irish Jigger]

Hard chrome over heat treated 4130 would make an indestructible star and/or sleeve. It could have 5-6 times the strength of 316, and the hard chrome would give it corrision protection, low friction on the threads, and a Rockwell C hardness in the upper 60's.

Surely this would cause a large price hike as the screw threads would require grinding after hard chroming?

[Three se7ens]

Hard chrome over heat treated 4130 would make an indestructible star and/or sleeve. It could have 5-6 times the strength of 316, and the hard chrome would give it corrision protection, low friction on the threads, and a Rockwell C hardness in the upper 60's.

Surely this would cause a large price hike as the screw threads would require grinding after hard chroming?

Typically, the hole would be tapped using a higher pitch limit tap so no grinding would be necessary.   But the price would still be prohibitive. I don't see many people being interested in a $50-$60 drag star for a reel you can get for less than that.  Besides, it's just not realistic to get the performance of the complete reel to a level where it could take advantage of that.