12T and 50SW problems and upgrades

[56tigers56]

Greetings from Down Under to Alan and other contributors

This is my first post after having spent some hours browsing this site which is a fantastic resource - congratulations to everyone.
I have recently acquired a 50SW and two 12T reels (my first internationals - acquisition cost average less than $50 each  ).  Using this site, I pulled down and serviced each of the reels.  I used Daiwa blue grease and oil – things like corrosion x, TSI 301, 321 and Cals either not available at all, virtually impossible to find, or way too expensive.

Judging by the line and overall condition the 50SW has never been fished, not a mark on it, just needed a refreshing lube service (came with original box, papers etc.) and operates beautifully with reasonable freespool and good progressive drag.  At some stage I would like to add a sleeve and update the drag.  I have a colleague who machines model engines from the ground up so I hope I can convince him to knock out a sleeve or two for me  .

The 12T reels are pretty good too.  No corrosion issues with either reel on disassembly.  The older reel (1990) has seen a bit of action with a bit of chrome loss on the eccentric lever and gear stud housing.  The newer reel (1996) has seen little action but must have been dropped because of a bent rod clamp screw and a couple of small chips in the edge of the adjacent left side plate assembly.  It was also missing the rod clamp and acorn nuts. 

I made the serendipitous discovery that the older reel has been blueprinted – has a sleeve and what looks to be an upgraded drag.  Belleville washers (disc clutch springs) are in standard ()() configuration.  One pair of washers have a larger diameter and there are two shims (thrust washers) between the washers and spool.  It works like silk.  Great freespool and drag.

Issues and questions arise with setting up the newer reel.  I tested the right side bearing and it is a bit rough.  If I change out this bearing should I also do the others at the same time?  Should I simply get the bearings from Penn Parts or are there other manufacturers that offer a superior product at reasonable cost?  Parts may be available in Australia although local suppliers are often much more expensive (for example the local Penn supplier is about double the cost of Penn Parts in the US).  Depending on what I order cheaper to go to Penn Parts for most things.  It would be appreciated if you advise the bearing sizes and manufacturers so that I can make local inquiries.

My other issue comes about trying to set up the freespool and drag.  I have been fiddling about with different configurations of the belleville washers.  In standard configuration ()() and the preset knob all the way out the spool sits too far to the right, there is a lot of free play in the spool and something rubs.  To fix this I wind the preset knob in a few turns which fixes the problem.  However this does not give me much drag range.  Judging from other posts this suggested the need for the inclusion of a shim (or two). 

I got a shim from Penn Parts but by itself it is at least the thickness of the two thin shims put together in the blueprinted reel.  The shim was labelled as 12H rather than 12T.  Is this a mistake by Penn Parts or are there no fine shims available?  In use, the shim fixes the spool position and rubbing but the drag ramps up very rapidly, locking up at strike without the use of the preset knob.  Cranking is stiff - like going up a steep hill on a bike, although the bearing issue may be substantially responsible.

Pulling the reel apart and trying different combinations I could not find a solution, although there are probably one or two configurations I have yet to try.  I decided to pull both reels down together and make a comparison.

What I found was that the blue printed reel has a slightly longer and heavier spring holding the drag plate in position.  I am wondering whether this might not be at least part of the problem.  In the reel I am having problems with the spring exerts negligible force on the drive plate which may allow it to come in contact with the drum washer and be responsible for the spool position and rubbing in freespool.

I have seen a lot of posts about different drags but not knowing what they all look like I don't know which one is on the problem reel.  Should I look to replace it or should I just attend to the spring.  For identification purposes I note that the drag cover is plastic rather than metal (as in the blue printed reel) and that the drag cover screws are larger diameter than the fine ones on the blue printed reel.  They are completely different drags.  If in your opinion I need to replace the drag please advise what it should be with and what the part number is for ordering purposes?

I hope my explanations have been clear enough and trust this may also help others who may be wrestling with similar problems.  Thank you very much in anticipation.  I tried posting a picture or two but not being sure how to go about it I don't think I have been successful.  Tight lines all.

[Rothmar2]

G'day Mate,

I asked the question on here quite a while back about sourcing bellevilles and other parts from a supplier in Australia. I know what you mean about buying parts from the tackle suppliers and distributers. We get done over big time in Australia. You are better off going to order from the US. I recently had an order of parts for a Senator 6/0 from Scott's Bait and Tackle, and they were spot on. Delivery time about 2 1/2 weeks. So if you are in no hurry for specific Penn parts they are highly recommended.
For general bits and pieces like bellevilles, shims, springs and bearings, I recently used these guys..

http://www.smallparts.com.au/about/

Prices are reasonable, compared to buying from tackle distributers. If you have a set of verniers, you will find they have a lot of these general parts which are identical to the "genuine" article.
So far I haven't had to wait for anything I've ordered, it's all been in stock. But they have said, in some cases, back ordering can take 4 weeks.

Welcome to the forum. You are doing the right thing to service the gear yourself and learning the full workings of your reels. These old Inters are great, and well worth caring for. Great pick-up for the price. You are very lucky. Treat them well, and they will more than look after you.

[56tigers56]

Still trying to get the hang of attachments.  Shown are the different size springs missing from the first post above.

[Tightlines667]

If the original reel had a gen 2 or 3 drag plate (where drag disc is attached via screws to pressure plate), and was upgraded to the new duradrag (single piece), sometimes the spring is also swapped for a newer, thicker one.  This can actually decrease the overall space (within drag chamber, and along entire spool shaft).  You may have to mess around with the Belleville thickness (I.e. Swap thick for thin), or possible shim, or both, to correct the spacing.

[56tigers56]

Hi Tightlines, thanks for the response.

The heavier spring is from the reel that works exactly as it should and this reel has the upgraded drag (Cal sheets).  The setup of the drags on both reels is the same in that the drag cover attaches to the spool - as I understand it, the drag is applied when the preset knob is screwed in, compressing the spring and bringing the drive plate (drag) into contact with the gear drum washer.

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first post but I think part of my problem in setting up the second reel is that the spring is not working as it should, being too weak and allowing the drag to operate at freespool.  Is this a problem that others have come across?  How do I order a stronger spring?  And is it possible to source some thin shims?  Is the drag pictured in my first post worth upgrading and what with?  I hope that if I have a stronger spring and some shims I will have some more options that, fingers crossed, will let me get the reel operating as it should.  At the moment I have a reel that is either way too sloppy and rubs in freespool or locks up and has no drag range.

For what its worth, the picture below shows what I believe to be an upgraded drag in the Cal sheets reel that is operating perfectly.

[56tigers56]

Is this what is referred to as a floating drag?

[Tightlines667]

These small, older internationals can be a bit tricky to service. 

After reexamining your posts, it looks to me like your older 12T actually might have the older asbestos drag washer, drag disc, spring, drag cover, and Bellevilles.  The 12T began being manufactured around 1990, and many parts are no longer available.  Do you have a serial number off of this reel?

As far as your newer reel goes...

I think you need new Bellevilles, a thrust bearing, shim(s)
Looks like you have the older (117-12T) drive plate w/HT-100 drag material, and the proper spring for this (also the newest style drag).

I would:
-replace the thrust bearing (part # 253-12), available from Scott's or Penn.  Also, I'd like to see a pic of the old one (both pieces), if you get it apart again and it's not too much trouble.
-get a few (3-4) shims (part#20A-12H)
-consider upgrading the drag to the newer duradrag (117N-12T) about $24


I would try to call Tony Dubeck @(215)228-6377 at Penn Parts. And ask him if there are any other shims or Bellevilles that would work on this reel.  In particular the following may fit:
-18-12LT (these are the stock light/thin washers for this reel).. order 4
-018H300 (these are heavy/thick for 12VSX)
-18H-30VS (heavy)
-18L-30VS (light)

You may also want to see if the VSX shims (008ATS5-4 or 154016VS) would work as well.

Simply replacing the thrust bearing, and Bellevilles should fix your spacing problem, but having additional shims, and/or a few Bellevilles of varying thicknesseses gives you more options in terms of adjusting the spacing and drag curve if needed/desired. 

I would also examine the ramping surfaces to ensure there is no obvious excessive wear or marring.   


Before ordering parts, I would also examine the other 4 bearings (55,55A,2-20spool bearings).  I would open em up, clean them out w/carb clearer and compressed air, and ensure there is no roughness before relubing (oil on spool bearings left open, grease packed pinion, thrust, and left plate bearings).  If in doubt replace.  Also, check the Antireverse stuff (gear rachet, dog, and dog spring) for excessive wear.


You should be able to troubleshoot your spacing problem before ordering parts, by playing with different Belleville stack/shimming arrangements (calipers are handy here).  You may want to try the older/thinner Bellevilles (from your older reel) and a shim or 2 here. 

Adjusting reel spacing to desired is a lot of trial and error, just take it slow.  For instance, A shim on the left side of spool will move the spool to the right, and increase tension on the drag spring.  A shim on the left outter bearing will help to free up the drag plate from the drag cover.  Shim on the pinion bearing will move the spool to the left, shim w/Bellevilles will move the pinion to the right, and spool to the left.  You may want to measure the Belleville stack thickness in the working reel, and try to copy it where your having issues, as a starting point.

Hope that helps some?

[alantani]

i would recommend upgrading the drags to penn's new dura drags.