Tapered Roller Bearings in Reels?

[Craigen]

Why are these bearings not commonly used in most reels? Ken Matsuura Marlin Tuna reels feature a rolling drag system.  Why isn't this type of drag system more widely used in reels?

[alantani]

not familar with the design at all.  i'd love to open one up some day, though. 

[Tightlines667]

Interesting concept...sounds really expensive (~$4,600.00).  I wonder if there is a schematic available?

http://www.bluefintackle.com/Ken%20Matsuura%20custom%20reels.html

The following was taken from 360 tuna...

"
Cone clutch concept is not particularly new
the early Policanski game reels made in South Africa had a cone clutch .
I seem to recollect that the early Tatler english game reels had a cone clutch too. Simple cork cone that increases friction area for the O.D. of the drag surface.

I've looked at the site info on these reels before & the drag graph is interesting .
tapered roller cone clutch can generate quite a bit of resistance with bearing end load pressure.
The M&T reel uses a pull type drag clamping pressure compared to a conventional disc drag that typically uses a push type drag clamping pressure.

One can deduce from the graph of drag vs time that the drag change with time of use is heat related.............where a typical disc type drag components expand with dramatic use & increase plate pressure & thus drag friction & at the same time there is an effective drag increase from the reducing diameter of the linefill on the spool.
The drag on the M&T reels decreases with time of use.........this tends to indicate that the cone clutch is a sealed type with a fairly viscous lubricant which reduces viscosity under dramatic use & reduces friction in the cone clutch. The line fill diameter on the spool is still going to be reducing & increasing effective drag of the friction unit output.............so ........to reduce drag output over time the friction values of the cone clutch have to be reducing quite dramatically to result in an overall drag reduction .

One can deduce that the lubricant in the cone clutch is contributing significantly to the drag values when the drag is cold.
I'm guessing freespool is a biatch........... difficult to see where there is a mechanism to completely disengage the drag .
No info on Drag max or Min capacity

It looks like you get an option of different pressure rates of either 1 kg or 1.5Kg per graduation on the drag lever and there are maybe 15 graduation marks within the arc of the drag lever available & an unknown drag at the first graduation & unknown whether there is freespool

You can buy a Dozen Makairas for the same money & Kil caught a BFT on a Makaira that was 50% larger than the BFT in the M&T advert..........He He.

A Makaira looks pretty good value & performance on that comparison.... He He

Somebody get one & send it to Alan Tani for a full stripdown & review"

[Craigen]

That would be cool if you could get your hands on one Alan.  But the price tag on these reels is almost seven grand! Seems like a very good idea to have a drag without using friction drag discs.  Maybe it is just too costly to produce compared with other reel drag designs. Or patent protections may prohibit its use in other reels.

[Craigen]

Thank you Tightlines for shedding more light on this unique reel.  Maybe if they were mass produced, economies of scale could get the price down to three grand !

[Robert Janssen]

These reels aren't entirely new; they've been around for fifteen years or more, and have been discussed on forums before.

We need to get a few things in order here...

1) Tapered bearings:
    Tapered roller bearings are nothing new either; they are used in a gazillion applications in a wide range of sizes. In fishing reels as we know them, seldom or never, not leastly because of size requirements... they just aren't available in sizes similar to what we are accustomed to using in reels nowadays. Of course someone could if they wanted to, but they haven't yet. In the Matsuura reel they are not used either iirc, and have nothing to do with the drag. (maybe a little, explained later)

2) Cone drag:
    Frustoconical friction clutches have been used in the past, also in many applications, including fishing reels. Very effective. I don't know why nobody is using them nowadays, and have often wondered. Perhaps because so many manufacturers are of a conventional mindset. However, the Matsuura reel does not use a conical friction clutch. The quoted passage from 360Tuna is written by a very knowledgeable guy, DenisB, whose posts are often of great value, but i wonder if something has been missed here.

3) The graphs:
    The graphs shown in relation to the performance of the reel show nothing, since they are devoid of any quantification. There are no units of measure anywhere to be seen. (Time vs Drag, what is that? Days and grams? Milliseconds and kilos?)
Don't get me wrong-- the person behind the reel is obviously a very capable individual who has compiled reams of graphs and charts, all very accurate i'm sure-- but as shown to us they are largely meaningless.

Now then... About the tapered bearings... this reel uses a form of rolling friction to create drag, by way of a large number of rollers acting upon a taper. The angle of these rollers as well as the pressure upon them can be altered, so as to create friction between the rollers and the tapered cones between which they roll / slide.

The reel attempts to make use of the heat generated here to finely control the drag by way of thermal expansion of the drag mechanism's components. It also attempts to compensate for the line level / torque aspect as line is paid out from the spool.

All very well thought out I'm sure, and the reel's maker has taken this very seriously, so it would be fairly safe to presume that the system works. Whether or not it works better than anyone elses drag system, or is worth the money, idunno.

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[alantani]

the first sentence and the last sentence pretty much tell the whole story! 

[reelworks]

What came to mind when I read about those reels was that it reminded me of a Shimano Roller Brake on a bicycle, which I would think would make for an excellent drag system although it would no doubt be heavier than simple drag washers.

One issue with an adjustable roller clutch on bikes is heat. They generator huge amounts of heat that's hard to dissipate on a bicycle hub, which is similar in size to a smaller fishing reel.

[Robert Janssen]

Yes, but the shimano roller brakes are still a regular friction brake, aren't they? It is a drum brake, but with rollers to force the brake pads, right?

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