Another Delrin advocate

[Alto Mare]

Sal,

I have been splitting a few as well.  Kinda makes me wonder if something a bit less fragible might make a better material for these washers.  The Teflon, is not as slick, and is subject to some compression, and may be subject to flow, but it does not become brittle or crack.  The Teflon washers used in the International series of reels lasts for decades with no noticable wear, and maintaining its properties relatively well.  Just a thought.

I've been drilling out the inner holes, and punching the outter.  

BTW what press is that? & where did you get it?  I have been considering investing in an Arbor press..something smaller maybe a 1 ton benchtop model?

John, don't give up on those yet, just because you can't cut them, i believe they're the best upgrade for these older reels to date.
Lee, Adam,Dave, Bryan, Dawn and I'm sure a few others could probably get it done for us, all they would need are the dimensions.
I'm sure in the near future, these will be available everywhere already cut to size.
If you wanted to try the press, here is where I got it from, you will need at least the 1 ton, the 1/2 ton would be too small
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-arbor-press-3552.html
I got an additional $10 off when i purchased mine.


You could also try these:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#2636T15
Reel speed as been tasting those for a while now, all the reels he services, get them.
I've also been testing them and are doing great, just like the black Acetal.
The brown Acetal is the same material that Carl Newell used for the  bearings.
The brown is also easier to cut.

[Tightlines667]

Sal,
I am certainly not giving up on Delron.  As you may recall, I suggested a Teflon washer under the gear, before you had shared the first Delron under gear test results.  This was based on the belief that function of this washer was to provide a durable, incompressable, frictionless surface in order to isolate the gear and drag stack.  Not a new idea.  Many other reels (Newells, Torqie, etc..) incorporate this concept in their design.  After servicing many 20+ year old Internationals, I have observed that the Teflon washers, which are installed in these reels in places subject to repeated heavy compression pressures, and designed to reduce friction, have held up exceedongly well.  I have no doubts about the long term durability of these Teflon washers.  I am just expresding concern, that the Delron material (although much slicker then Teflon) may suffer from friability and possibly long-term durabilty concerns.  They may be fine though, and I favor them, both above and below the gear stack stack over the CF or stock under gear washer.

[Alto Mare]

Sal,
I am certainly not giving up on Delron.  As you may recall, I suggested a Teflon washer under the gear, before you had shared the first Delron under gear test results.  This was based on the belief that function of this washer was to provide a durable, incompressable, frictionless surface in order to isolate the gear and drag stack.  Not a new idea.  Many other reels (Newells, Torqie, etc..) incorporate this concept in their design.  After servicing many 20+ year old Internationals, I have observed that the Teflon washers, which are installed in these reels in places subject to repeated heavy compression pressures, and designed to reduce friction, have held up exceedongly well.  I have no doubts about the long term durability of these Teflon washers.  I am just expresding concern, that the Delron material (although much slicker then Teflon) may suffer from friability and possibly long-term durabilty concerns.  They may be fine though, and I favor them, both above and below the gear stack stack over the CF or stock under gear washer.

Yes Penn has been using teflon for many years, if you're still thinking teflon, you're missing the point. Teflon doesn't cut it.
The reason teflon/rulon are no great is that they tend to squish when you apply drag. They do have lower friction, but strength isn't there.
You want a washer that doesn't squish when applying drag and slick enough to be a good bearing. Acetal is it.
Sal

[BMITCH]

Maybe this will help...





And after I cleaned up with the flat edge of a razor

[Tightlines667]

Sal,
Thanks for the info on the Arbor press.  I have limited space in my spartment, but would like a smaller model that I can store when not in use.  I am thinkimg of using it primarily for pressing cam housings theough corroded brindges on larger internationals, drive shaft housings on smaller internationals, clicker housings on both, and antireverse bearings and the like.  Being able to cut washers would be an added bonus.  

[Alto Mare]

Maybe this will help...





And after I cleaned up with the flat edge of a razor

That looks very good my friend, it sure would help many. I just want to mention that the press creates zero dust with Acetal and CF washers.
The only issue I have is to center the washer for cutting the ID.
I could probably punch 4-5 dozen Carbon Fiber washer OD within minutes, but cutting the ID takes time.

[Alto Mare]

Sal,
Thanks for the info on the Arbor press.  I have limited space in my spartment, but would like a smaller model that I can store when not in use.  I am thinkimg of using it primarily for pressing cam housings theough corroded brindges on larger internationals, drive shaft housings on smaller internationals, clicker housings on both, and antireverse bearings and the like.  Being able to cut washers would be an added bonus.  

John, for some reason the 1/2 ton has better rating, but don't know why. Either are heavy, but small.
A good tool to have, I've pressed some parts that needed to be tight even though they were a little bigger, I was able to do it.
The handle is definitely too short, a 12" extension will cure it.
If you get one, let me know how it works out.

[Brendan]

Sal would it be possible to punch the I.D. first and make a jig to index the washer as you cut the O.D.? Ive never used one of those things so I'm not sure. 

[Tightlines667]

Sal,
I am certainly not giving up on Delron.  As you may recall, I suggested a Teflon washer under the gear, before you had shared the first Delron under gear test results.  This was based on the belief that function of this washer was to provide a durable, incompressable, frictionless surface in order to isolate the gear and drag stack.  Not a new idea.  Many other reels (Newells, Torqie, etc..) incorporate this concept in their design.  After servicing many 20+ year old Internationals, I have observed that the Teflon washers, which are installed in these reels in places subject to repeated heavy compression pressures, and designed to reduce friction, have held up exceedongly well.  I have no doubts about the long term durability of these Teflon washers.  I am just expresding concern, that the Delron material (although much slicker then Teflon) may suffer from friability and possibly long-term durabilty concerns.  They may be fine though, and I favor them, both above and below the gear stack stack over the CF or stock under gear washer.

Yes Penn has been using teflon for many years, if you're still thinking teflon, you're missing the point. Teflon doesn't cut it.
The reason teflon/rulon are no great is that they tend to squish when you apply drag. They do have lower friction, but strength isn't there.
You want a washer that doesn't squish when applying drag and slick enough to be a good bearing. Acetal is it.
Sal

I agree, squishing is no good, but neither is brittleness/cracking.  These wahers shouldn't have any twisting or torsionsl forces on them, so they will likely be fine, but they do crack rather easily.  The Teflon washers are often placed in the areas of the reel that actually experience the greatest compression loads of any parts in the reel (i.e. under the cam assembly for instance).  They don't show any signs of appreciable wear after decades of heavy use, despite being put under higher loads then we are talking with most of the modded senators.  However, I will admit they are restricted, and not apt to 'run' anywhere when seated in the cam housing, etc.  I can see your point where they might deform under load, when placed under the main.  Delron will not.  I am just curious how the Delron will hold up after long term use, under high heat, etc.  I kniw alot of thought wws put into choosing this material, but its friability is just a bit disconcerting to me.  I have confidence in Teflon's durability.  I think we are really splitting hairs here, and I have been using Delron in all if my smaller senators (9/0s down), both above and below.

In a seperate, but related note, I still am not sold on plastic cupped over gear washers over the stock metal spring, or possibly using cupped Bellevilles in place of them. 

Experimenting around with different materials and optiobs us part of what makes this reel tinkering fun.  I wish I had the means to get out there and test some of this stuff on some monster bluewater catches myself, or the confidence to install 'experimental parts' in some of my customers high end working reels, so they could test em for me.  Just voicing some thoughts, not becessarily hard facts.  Time and real world truals will build confidence.

I still think an under gear bearing, recessed into a custom main gear (like that on the Torques), is the best/smoothest.  Delron (or Teflon) should make a good, cost-effective alternative.

[gstours]

Hello and time for me to chime in!  I too tried several of the mentioned methods of making delrin washers.  I clamp the sheet between 2 pcs if 1/4'' plywood, then layout for the least waste. then using a standard hole saw arbor bit drill slowly thru all layers of the clamped sandwich.
  Then using a step drill pierce down to eventually the proper step drill size thru only the delrin.
Then choose a sharp holesaw with the proper I.D.  of course it cuts the proper O.D. of your washer.  Drill slowly thru the top plywood and the delrin.
  This way you save the bottom piece of plywood for the next time as you flip it over and it has the arbor holes ready. the plywood sandwich can be screwed together with drywall screws after clamping with the screw points up. One advantage to this method is the holes stay "centered" and multiple washers can be cut quickly once "jigged"up..
  This has worked good for me.  I am slowly converting my stardrag gears over to that at inspection/lube time. Just another way to skin a cat!    gst.

[Alto Mare]

I still think an under gear bearing, recessed into a custom main gear (like that on the Torques), is the best/smoothest.  Delron (or Teflon) should make a good, cost-effective alternative.

I'm not sure about the torque, but i did try a bearing for under the gear about a year ago


It did ok, but I could see that maintenance would be tough on those.
To me the Acetal is the best choice to date.
As you, I'm just another member here, I'm not selling you anything, I have sent lots of samples to many out of pocket.
I do not work for McMastersCarr or make any money here, I enjoy what I do and when I get excited about a product, i want to share it with all.
There are still many that believe the carbon fiber washer for under the gear is a better choice, that it your choice.
if I'm wrong about what I'm putting out here, that would be fine with me, we learn just the same with good and bad, the only thing I askk is that you prove it.
Sal

[Alto Mare]

I agree, squishing is no good, but neither is brittleness/cracking.

Sorry, I included this above, but somehow, it didn't show.


Not a fair statement John, those crack because of your inability to cut them. I was also splitting them, but ever since I've been using the press, I haven't seen any.
If you tell me they crack, while installed under the gear, that would be a different story.

[fIsHsTiiCkS]

I will say that once these washers have been cut that they are almost indestructible! Also, for the Delrin with the PFTE mixed in, the surface wear resistance is insane! The  wear resistance is what's important as you will not be putting the same kind of pressure and force on the washers as you are when trying to punch them vs fishing them under the gear.

[BMITCH]

These delrin washers are NICE. The drag is buttery smooth. Just a matter of say 6 weeks until I'll be able to use these in the real world. I'm really confident in their ability to stand up to the tasks. So much so that I'm in the process of changing all my reels over to them, including my Newell's. In the couple of reels that I've already upgraded with these I have opted to go with a flat delrin on top of the drag stack and no Spring washer installed. I'm yet to be comfortable or like the fit of the delrin spring washer. When I do fish them I'll post up my results and comments.
Bob

[Alto Mare]

Sal would it be possible to punch the I.D. first and make a jig to index the washer as you cut the O.D.? Ive never used one of those things so I'm not sure. 

Yes Brendan, a jig is very much possible and there are numerous ways to do it. I placed a short nail on the cutting board that i'm showing, what that does is it keeps the washer in place while cutting the OD, making it easy to cut the ID.
What other members are showing here will also work.
Sal