Older Int 16s with plastic drag cover question.......Help!

[WalterWyman]

I got a 16s today to service the guy had left it wet and so the entire rt was disassembled rust removed and lubed there was a lot of problems with the reel I was able to get it all clean and working. During my test I noticed that when I put any drag to it the high speed gets harder to reel. I have checked the left side plate bearing cleaned it well and checked it rolls ok. I know that the reel was known for some problems but is this something that I can fix or is this a live with it problem? Just so you know the entire reel was cleaned and lubed and reassembled. I know that one of the masters here can give me some knowledge.

Thanks
Wally

[Tightlines667]

Check a few of the other recent international posts.  Sounds like a spacing issue here.  You may want new bellevilles, and some shims.  It is kindof a trial-and-error type process with the final tuning and adjustments on these older Internationals.  It is also possible that there is marring on the right side of the spool shaft (where it passes through the right spool bearing.  This can usually be observed as the spool hanging up to the left, when backing the drag lever back from full.  Or marring in the cam assembly.

Sounds like you just need some minor shimming though.

[WalterWyman]

Thanks for your quick response the belvils were rusted and I cleaned them but they do look pitted so I should replace them but where would I shim to shim.
Thanks

[Tightlines667]

Read my other posts on the topic, but I would start with replacing the bellevilles, make sure you have stock config, and proper stack height.  Add a 0.3mm shim to the inside of the belleville stack if needed.  You want to check drive shaft laterial play, and shim under gear set if needed.  Then check gear alignment, and shim on Pinion bearing if needed there.  If the spool is too far right, you can also shim the left side plate to ensure the outter drag drive plate is not rubbing on the heat shield.  If the drag is heavily worn, shimming on the drive plate (or on reels w/2...outside the left spool bearing is in order).  Be careful to keep your total shims to a nin.  Too many will create problems...like the spool shaft contacting the left side plate when the lever is pushed to sunset.  Just test, shim, test again, until you get it right.

[WalterWyman]

The things I learned with this reel.......

Well I want to thank all who read and helped with this problem, especially John from Oahu. Really went out of hi way to help me understand the shimming process.
As you know I am relatively new to the fixing reels business and sometimes it seems a little daunting. But with The help that is received here and other professionals, there is not anything that can be fixed that can be fixed.
When I started I was told that it just need some shimming... My mind went for a cruise to understand how shimming could have something to do with the problem that I was having which was being harder in high gear to reel when in gear. Three days of thinking about it brought me to a understanding that shimming was a thing to look at if there was a problem with things hitting or rubbing, or the need to have more drag. Well while thinking about how pressure was causing me to have this problem, after reading a bunch of posts it was clear that all the pressure that was being made in the reel was pressing on 2 bearings. The Cam Bearing and the Left Plate Bearing. This mad sense because the other problem was that there was a strange sound that seemed to be coming from the left side. kind of like a rubbing of the drag cover. So I called an talked to a guy at Penn and he was very clear and said that it sounded like the bearings. He also explained the process of shimming the reel, the Penn way. All right it makes sense to me, the sleeve process is now understood... Did I say that after working of Laboratory Robotics I am a little slow on the uptake.... I then ordered parts from Scott's and had a wonderful chat with the lady that is the reel specialist there. Well then it was only a wait for the parts. I wanted to get it done so I drove down to a shop in Oceanside Ca and this guy is like a sage he held the reel and said you can feel that the bearing is pitted, but didn't have the parts... So when I got the parts today I was a little scared and stoked at the same time and I replaced the bearings that seemed fine until you put some side pressure and then you felt the pitting, and the problem is taken care of.
So all in all I have a fuller understanding of Lever Drag Reels and have some knowledge tools to help me in the future! Now I just have to get some more tools to be able to cut sleeves and to customize drags....Well that will be for another day. So John and all the sages here I say thanks!!

[Tightlines667]

Walter,

Glad to hear you were able to get your reel fixed ip, and in the process learned a great deal about the mechanics and finner points of lever drag reels.  I'd be interested to hear the how the reel techs at Penn approach the final shimming/adjustment process.  I have gotten advice on the topic from a number of difderent old timer reel repair experts here on Oahu, but never thought to try to contact Penn directly.  Tha ks for the detailed post explaining the process you went through!  I am sure others will find it useful.  The only correction I might suggest, is that the right spool bearing is also subject to laterial compression loads as the drag is applied.  This along with the fact that water can collect here (along with left side plate bearings), and it is adjacent to Belleville washers that can rust, means this bearing often needs replacement during routine servicing as well.

[WalterWyman]

Basically the guy at penn said that what they do is set the pre set to 0 and shim to get to 0 to 2 lbs in free spool. The thing I learned from this, the amount of drag is separate from the ability of the reel to reel smoothly. The spool bearings when in gear really are almost taken out of the question. It was a interesting talk. And of course you are correct the right spool bearing does encounter lateral compression from the bellevilles and cam and bearing, but I was thinking if the free spool was cool, the spool in gear moves as a single piece leaving the outer bearings to cause problems with the reeling. Unless there was some grinding and you taught me that that means shimming the pinion insertion into the cam bearing. The right spool bearing was the first one I dug into after seeing the belleviles were rusted.  Going forward it's important to really check the bearings on the right side both because of the lateral compression and the ease of possibility of water and salt intrusion. I discovered a way to check the bearing for lateral compression failure and that is by pressing on the outer race and turning the bearing say on the pinion you could feel quite a different feeling in a bearing! Something I just thought of was this, another reason to remember to put lever drags to free spool and click clicker on when not in use! One thing I have learned in life is my understanding is subject to change....

[Tightlines667]

Great ensights.  The spool/drag assembly do move as a seperate unit.  I guess I'm not the only one that uses that method to test questionable bearings for roughness (its important to check after cleaning them out, since greae can mask signs of wear too.

Another quick helpful tip on common problems with lever drag reels that have drive shaft bearings (Like 80STW, 130H,TI130)...
If the reel feels tough when cranking under light load in both high and low gear, replace the drive shaft bearings, shim drive shaft as needed, check drive shaft for excessive marring/wear (rare), and test before jumping to worn gear set.  Usually high and low speed gears wear at different rates, and often times replacing the high speed main alone will fix worn gear problems.  Though if needed replacing gears as a set is usually advised.  I have only had to replace about gears on 6 or so of the roughly 300 reels I've serviced to date.  Roughness van usually be attributed to something else being amiss.

[steelfish]

.........I have only had to replace about gears on 6 or so of the roughly 300 reels I've serviced to date. 

no wonder you are our resident International guru (and that counting was on a 2015 post)

[Tightlines667]

.........I have only had to replace about gears on 6 or so of the roughly 300 reels I've serviced to date. 

no wonder you are our resident International guru (and that counting was on a 2015 post)

Honestly, I haven't serviced many reels (maybe 15-20?) since I bought the boat (last August).

John

[steelfish]

I dont blame you John

lucky you