US113 Handle Going Backwards

[Rivverrat]

Meanwhile I think shimming with washers will help greatly. In the pic you can see there is plenty of room for washers & the dog is flush with top of pin.

Taking a look at your picture I wonder if a simple fix (on the Penn side) might be flipping the ratchet over and press cutting it in the opposite direction.

Keta noted that the ratchet is "stamped" out and you can see the slight bending of the teeth with a rounded edge pointed down in the direction the dogs could float. If they only catch on the "tip" of one edge of the dog then a think we see some of the reported deformation.

If the rounded edge were on the gear side there might be better and more perfectly consistent engagement of the dog and ratchet.

Or, the shimming with washers . This will make them even more balancy to get back on though.

 

John I think this Idea of yours is a wonderful one regarding the ratchet gear. I had wrongly assumed the bevel or radius was put there & did not even  consider it was from being stamped.

[Three se7ens]

I think a new ratchet, with the tooth count reduced to 16, and new dogs, all waterjet cut from stainless plate would be greatly increase the strength.  For most people, its probably not necessary.  But in riverrat's case, I think it the damage was cause by shock loading of the ratchet.  It may have been enough force to dislodge the ratchet a little as it started to catch, so only part of the dog was engaged with the ratchet.  The rounded profile of the ratchet from stamping exaggerates that problem. A few less teeth on a ratchet and no rolled edges would greatly improve the engagement between the dogs and the ratchet. 

[Keta]

Once we get it figured out you can do a production run.  The MKI Ratchet is 19T.

[Tightlines667]

The torque star series reels have similar AR ratchets.  I wonder if these might be susceptable to the same failure if the ARB fails.  May take several years until we see any issues here though.  

John,
I was refering to the antireverse ratchet design.  It is thinner, a bit larger diameter, with similar shaped teeth and similar under gear spacing as what we see on the US113.  The dogs are of a different thickness, shape, material, and they are the silent tabbed type.  These reels also have the higher quality ARB and for all practicle purposes should not typically suffer ar system failures.  I am just saying the dogs and ratchet type alone are not one of my favorites.  The older senator style dogs, and ratchet are beefier and have a more soild engagement, despite the clickity-clack.  I like the removable ar ratchet design, but think it would benefit from being thicker, with sharper teeth.  I also prefer spring-loaded dogs (even with weaker springs) to the silent dog style.  Again, I am not saying the new Torques would be prone to AR failure, just that it is possible.

[steelfish]

I sent out a few water cut AR ratchets but as of now haven't heard back from the testers.  If I had a reel it would be easier.

yep, Im one of them, the problem is that it took me a bit longer than why I expected to be able to pick the ratchet and reel up from my addy in USA (I just bought one baja used and ask keta the tester ratchet), right now Im outta town but Im promes to get few pictures of the Keta ratchet for Baja Special and the factory ratchet in few days, I dont have a fishing trip scheduled on this days to test it on a good fish but I will try to make a test lifting some dumbells weights.

for start the keta Baja ratchet dont have one side rounded like the stock one

[johndtuttle]

John,
I was refering to the antireverse ratchet design.  It is thinner, a bit lsrger diameter, with similar shaped teeth and similar under gear spacing as what we see on the US113.  The dogs are of a difderent thickness, shape, material, and they are the silent tabbed type.  These reels also have the higher quality ARB and for all practicle purposes should not typically suffer ar system failures.  I am just saying the dogs and ratchet type alone are not one of my favorites.  The older senator style dogs, and ratchet are beefier and have a more soild engagement, despite the clickity-clack.  I like the removable ar ratchet design, but think it would benefit from being thicker, with sharper teeth.  I also prefer spring-loaded dogs (even with weaker springs) to the silent dog style.  Again, I am not saying the new Torques would be prone to AR failure, just that it is possible.

Every AR system fails without maintenance. All of the silent mechanical types are espeically finicky.

The good news is that the clunkiest method of all, dogs, springs and a coarse toothed ratchet is the most reliable.

But people buying new reels these days hate clicking dogs. The Baja Special is tolerable because the fine tooth makes a very light sound and has minimal handle back play and it is not used for the most aggressive techniques that require a lot of rod play.

If I am at the lake fishing I want quiet. If I am standing next to a guy at the rail, I really don't want to hear his reel. If I am fishing artificials all day then clicking is a deal breaker. I won't fish a clicking reel for artificial lures. Partly the noise, partly due to braid and the effect handle back play has with it (clunk).

Trolling, not the slightest worry. Bait fishing, not a big deal. Casting and retrieving braid all day? Clicking is a nightmare due to noise and handle back play.

People buying new reels are always telling you something *very* important. They are not dumb and they may not be able to tell you why they do what they do but there are very good reasons for what they do.

We can talk until we are blue in the face about the supreme reliability of sprung dogs.

When a guy in a store hears clickety-click and has handle back play it screams at him "cheap" and noisy. That is why virtually all of those reels are nearly extinct despite the "experts" singing their praises. The average guy values quiet and smooth more the few times he gets to go fishing.

[Keta]

I like to hear the click, my Trinidad reels all click, and I like knowing my AR system is working.  Best is an AR bearing and double spring loaded AR dogs.

[johndtuttle]

I like to hear the click, my Trinidad reels all click, and I like knowing my AR system is working.  Best is an AR bearing and double spring loaded AR dogs.

I understand totally, Lee.

But guys who buy new reels don't like clicking, in the greater majority. That is why nearly every new reel made is silent.

I totally respect that after working on as many reels as many here have and seeing all the problems reels have that ultimate reliability is the most reassuring sound imaginable (clicking dogs). Guys that fish a lot LOVE ultimately reliability as is only natural.

Other men that get to fish less value quiet more as an escape from their noisy lives.

[Keta]

But guys who buy new reels don't like clicking, in the greater majority. That is why nearly every new reel made is silent.

Market driven like excessively high gear ratios that are not needed for most of our fishing.

[Alto Mare]

You know, I need to apologize to Rivverrat, all he wanted to know was how to deal with his issue with the Baja. Sorry bud, although I strongly believe what I've said above, it wasn't the right place.
This thread is now going in a different direction and with some senseless comments.

Rivverrat, contact Penn and see how they want to handle it. No need for much explanations to them, they've been watching us from the start and do so every day here.

Sal

[Keta]

We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife.  


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

[johndtuttle]

But guys who buy new reels don't like clicking, in the greater majority. That is why nearly every new reel made is silent.

Market driven like excessively high gear ratios that are not needed for most of our fishing.

Exactly right.

I learned long ago to think of people and their buying decisions as "smart" though and the people that make what they want as "smart" and try to understand why things like a 6.2:1 gear ratio work for more guys than 4.8:1...

If you approach it that way it is an interesting exercise in what guys prefer for "fishing" versus what is desirable for "catching". Most guys spend all their time "fishing" and very little time "catching".

Look at LR fishing. All the older experienced guys start going on longer and longer trips and want reels that give them every advantage for "catching". Go on a 5 day or more and the usual trouble is too much catching! Of course slower reels are better. All it takes is a few cranks off the bottom and your jig is bit. And the fish are bigger to vastly bigger...reels for catching are preferred.

The VAST majority of rods and reels are sold in the SoCal bight for 1/2 and 3/4 day boats. If a guy goes on a rare overnight or 3-day that is a big deal.

Well, on those shorter trips they are typically characterized by lots of fishing...and relatively little catching most years. High speed reels save effort for fishing (getting a bait in to change or for yo-yo etc). He can use his high speed reel to do all kinds of fishing and he gets punished less on the smaller local models.

Lots of Catching: Mechanical dogs and tough (but noisy) gears. Lots of Fishing and not so much Catching: Quiet and smooth.

Catching is usually the more rare.

[johndtuttle]

We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife.  


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

I agree. A better way to do it would be a cut ratchet.

But I would also like to see the dog post be fitted for an "e-clip" above and a bushing support below so they don't "float" as much on the post and are held in alignment with the ratchet better.

[Keta]

When I had Joel's I noticed a lot of vertical slop but I think that's due to a bad designed AR spring.  A retainer would help.  The AR springs should be left and right not the same and they need to be stronger.

[Alto Mare]

Due to the diameter of the spool on most reels of today, manufacturers don't have much choice but to give their reels high gear ratio.
The older guys at Penn had it right going with a taller spool, but no one is following .
I'm starting to open up a few lever drag reels lately and not crazy about what I'm seeing. Reels with small diameter spools work 3-4 time harder than their big brothers. Heat builds up fast when you're working that hard to retrieve the same amount of line, but at the very least...they're quiet .
Again, that's another story.

We are still trending in the right direction Sal.  Penn needs to fix the problem with this good production reel....if I could sneak one past the boss I'd have one but she inventoried my gear and is watching with a sharp Bobbitt knife.  


I don't think it's using a cast dog, the AR dog is too small, the ratchets are rounded from stamping and the springs are not well designed.  It might also be the wrong SS alloy.

No :Lee, we are comparing reels and that's not what Rivverrat was asking for, I apologized because I started it with my first answer to him.