US113/113N Baja Special R&D

Keta · July 23, 2015, 08:34:15 PM

The first thing I noticed was a rounding of one side of the AR ratchet due to them being stamped, the second is the one I currently have is set up for alternate engagement, the third thing is the AR springs appear to be weak and are "slow" when greased.

I think the problems are mostly the weak spring not allowing the AR dog to move fast enough to fully engage the AR ratchet teeth and when under a load the rounded tips of the AR ratchet hit the tip of the AR dog when moving backwards, deforming the AR dog tip then slamming the second AR dog.

Stronger AR dog springs and a flat AR ratchet could be the fix.

My first run of AR ratchets were cut out of too thin of material, the next batch will be thicker. I will have AR dogs with a heavier tip and AR ratchets in stock and 16T cut.

Alto Mare · July 23, 2015, 09:24:16 PM

Glad your going forward with the upgrades, this will let us know if the problem with this reel goes away.

steelfish · July 23, 2015, 09:28:10 PM

Looking forward your custom parts Lee.

Lee, join us on the Baja Special bandwagon and get a US-senator 113hn

STRIPER LOU · July 23, 2015, 10:56:42 PM

Lee, thanks for your work to improve these reels. Although I've been fortunate with no problems I would like to get this upgrade from you when available.
Regards, .. Lou

handi2 · July 24, 2015, 12:02:02 AM

I use 4 of them and haven't had a problem yet. I will get the upgrades just to make sure..!!

Keta · July 24, 2015, 12:07:09 AM

Inspect the tips of the teeth on the ratchets to see if they are rounded off. Most of the time this shouldn't be a problem but under heavy load they might not work. The dog isn't supported on the tip due to the spring under them and that might allow the dog to deflect enough to cause problem when combined with the rounded ratchet teeth.

I'm not sure but I think I heard Penn has a improved AR ratchet.

Again, overall these reels really impress me.

Rivverrat · July 24, 2015, 11:24:28 PM

A text I received from Steve Carson stated that some of these reels "may have a slightly concave dog gear" . So Penn is aware that there is an issue. Penn wants my reel back for inspection. I have it boxed up but have not sent it out yet. Penn is covering shipping cost...Jeff

Keta · July 24, 2015, 11:30:59 PM

Penn and Steve are good people. I have the drawings at the cutter now.

handi2 · July 25, 2015, 12:42:17 AM

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 24, 2015, 11:24:28 PM
A text I received from Steve Carson stated that some of these reels "may have a slightly concave dog gear" . So Penn is aware that there is an issue. Penn wants my reel back for inspection. I have it boxed up but have not sent it out yet. Penn is covering shipping cost...Jeff

Every one I have worked on has a concaved AR ratchet or "dog gear". If they come back with a flat one then a lot of them will be needed.

Rivverrat · July 25, 2015, 01:22:53 AM

handi2, While I have not worked on any Baja or newer US113 prior to receiving mine. However every available picture I have seen of the internals of it show a concave ratchet gear. So I will wait to see what mine has when it comes back from Penn.

Lee I am interested in this new ratchet gear. Being that Penn or no one in the know has announced anything different regarding this issue. New springs also if anything is done with coming up with stronger ones.

Why is the ratchet gear not integral with the gear sleeve like other Senators?

jurelometer · July 25, 2015, 01:52:59 AM

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 25, 2015, 01:22:53 AM
handi2, While I have not worked on any Baja or newer US113 prior to receiving mine. However every available picture I have seen of the internals of it show a concave ratchet gear. So I will wait to see what mine has when it comes back from Penn.

Lee I am interested in this new ratchet gear. Being that Penn or no one in the know has announced anything different regarding this issue. New springs also if anything is done with coming up with stronger ones.

Why is the ratchet gear not integral with the gear sleeve like other Senators?

The ratchet is much larger than one on the original 113. It would take a ton of machining to turn one down - plus the gear sleeve would also have to be stainless- which it is not right now. Larger ratchets and bronze gear sleeves do have some advantages.

Since the drag stack pushes the gear against the ratchet, a separate ratchet should not be a problem (barring another design issue). After all, the main gear floats on the sleeve as well.

Speaking of design issues- I want to update something I said on the other thread on the Baja Special. It looks like the stock dog spring design is intended to lift the dog up against the main gear. Unfortunately it also acts as a fulcrum for tilting the dog- which is probably what caused the dog post to get lifted out. Maybe a wide washer that raises the dog a bit is a good idea after all. If it has a slot cut in it, the same or similar spring could be used. I am not a fan of the floating floppy dogs. Something that keeps the dog flat would have to be an improvement.

-J

Keta · July 25, 2015, 02:26:44 AM

The pins the dogs go on are a good fit and I don't that as a problem. A larger OD delrin under washer might help hold down the dogs.

Rivverrat · July 25, 2015, 04:04:14 AM

jurelometer, thanks for that answer.
My thoughts are after the improved gear thicker than factory dogs might be an advantage. One could play with shims/washers to find what thickness would work.

The spring issue, could heavier gauge wire be used for this spring to achieve better results? There just doesn't seem to be enough room for a pull type spring or much of anything I could think of.

jurelometer · July 25, 2015, 04:41:22 AM

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 25, 2015, 04:04:14 AM
jurelometer, thanks for that answer.
My thoughts are after the improved gear thicker than factory dogs might be an advantage. One could play with shims/washers to find what thickness would work.

The spring issue, could heavier gauge wire be used for this spring to achieve better results? There just doesn't seem to be enough room for a pull type spring or much of anything I could think of.

I think that order to make the ratchet significantly thicker, it has to be hollowed out to clear the stuff underneath it. My guess is that there is not enough room to do that without increasing the outside diameter of the ratchet. But probably not enough room to clear the dog posts. So the spring lifts the dog up to the ratchet, but does not support it. Making a super thick dog is an clever idea. The key is providing surfaces on both sides of the dog so that it will always lie flat. A washer or thick dog could have a notch to allow the spring arrangement to be the same.

From MysticParts:

A wider undergear washer is a good idea, but since the dog is diving under the ratchet, this is not the primary problem

I posted a formula for calculating the force on the dog post for a given drag setting. I'll bet that it is sufficient to pull out a dog post if it is pushing up the post at an angle (dog tilted). If I can find it, I'll post the actual load for this reel here. Every time the dog engages at at angle, it is like a hammer tapping a punch up on the dog post.

Of course Lee gets first, second, third vote, and tie break(plus he counts the votes), since he is stepping up to design and make the test parts.

"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

1Forecon · July 25, 2015, 04:57:40 AM

Keta, when you get that 113hn gear sleeve of the post, please measure the thickness of the lower flange lip. I think if the lip were ground off, then the ratchet would sit closer to flush with the bottom of the sleeve and line up equally with the dog pawls when they lay flat(maybe a thin sizes to inside of gear teeth groove in diameter to act as a bearing surface.

Remove the spring arm from under the dog so it isn't elevated(rearrange spring for engagement of course), place a delrin washer under the gear and slot(groove) the dog posts to accept a c-clip to retain the dog from floating up and in theory voila!

I would prefer a FLAT AR ratchet of course with deeper more defined teeth also to improve the bite.

Just my first guess from the photos I've seen. Just thinking outloud.