DRAGENSTEIN

[Alto Mare]

 

Alto Mare......I hope someone answers your question re drag washers and heat.
I cant 'cos my brain hurts!

I wasn't expecting you to... Wink

Since my question is pretty much related to this thread, I figured I put it out there.

Sal
   

[johndtuttle]

Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?

Sal

The amount of heat is identical, how the heat is distributed is what is different. This is why single disc brakes can be red hot yet very powerful.

It will be more spread out over more washers, but the total amount of heat produced is the same as the kinetic energy absorbed is the same.

It must be said that it is very rare for heat to be much of a factor in fishing drags unless you are truly big game fishing for things that can run 500 yards etc.

[Alto Mare]

Thank you John!
I had my own take on it, but wanted to get more opinions from the pros.
Yes, comparing the two, that would make sense having equal heat distribution.
On some lever drag reels it looks as the ratchet and dogs have been fried in a frying pan, but still doing their job. That single larger washer creates lots of heat.

Sal

[Tiddlerbasher]

From my own experiments with different materials (the weird science bit maybe) - Comparing idential setups with 75mm discs of 1mm thick cf and kevlar - same drag (10lb) , same test model (using my line spooler and a battery drill - charge battery and run until it stops) -the kevlar setup ran several degrees cooler for the same drag setting   ran test 3 times on each - within .5 degree same result. Couldn't really understand the results so emailed a friend (specialist in thermo dynamics). He upfront stated that it wasn't his specialist discipline but that he wasn't surprised and quoted weird science back at me. He also intimated that a different test-bed could produce completely different results

At the end of the day we have cf based drag sytems that work in the real world, and are still being improved thanks to Adam and the other alumni. Shouldn't we be happy

Nope - If it's broke fix it. If it ain't broke improve it

Apologies for the 'engineering rant'

[jurelometer]

Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?

Sal

If I am so smart, why do I need three tries to put together a squidder? 

The amount of heat is determined by the amount of work.  Lets say both reel designs were able to keep exactly  10 lbs of drag  for a 200 yard run.  The amount of heat generated on both designs would be exactly the same.

Now what the drag system does with the heat can vary.  It has to be able to maintain function at higher temperature for some of the heat, and conduct the rest away.  It seems that most high-drag reel designs focus more on dealing with high temperature than doing anything specific to dissipate heat.  Those dust shields on lever drags bother me.  Trapped air is a great insulator.  It looks like they are trying to build a thermos.


I was impressed with the amount of drag heat generated by a medium sized tuna on a typical drag setting.  If I can find the numbers, I will post.

[Alto Mare]

I hear you on the dust shields. Yes, it would be nice if you could find those numbers.
Thanks Dave.

Sal

[Tightlines667]

Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?

Sal

If I am so smart, why do I need three tries to put together a squidder? 

The amount of heat is determined by the amount of work.  Lets say both reel designs were able to keep exactly  10 lbs of drag  for a 200 yard run.  The amount of heat generated on both designs would be exactly the same.

Now what the drag system does with the heat can vary.  It has to be able to maintain function at higher temperature for some of the heat, and conduct the rest away.  It seems that most high-drag reel designs focus more on dealing with high temperature than doing anything specific to dissipate heat.  Those dust shields on lever drags bother me.  Trapped air is a great insulator.  It looks like they are trying to build a thermos.


I was impressed with the amount of drag heat generated by a medium sized tuna on a typical drag setting.  If I can find the numbers, I will post.

Actually, the 'heat (or cooling) shields' on many lever drag reels are designed to serve 2 primary functions:
1)Serve as a means of transferring a dissapating heat
2)Isolate, and protect drag components from outside salt, and debris

It is my understanding that 1) is accomplished by having:
these shields typically made of aluminum (or some other material) that will quickly grabs and transfers heat to the spool, and the surrounding air as it rotates.

Admittedly, some designs are better at achieving one or more of these functions while not adversely affecting performance.

[jurelometer]

I hear you on the dust shields. Yes, it would be nice if you could find those numbers.
Thanks Dave.

Sal

Hi Sal,

I found my calculations,  but I  don't  trust them enough to post them.   I don't want to mislead folks.   FWIW, I am fairly comfortable in my belief that the heat generated for even moderate bluewater use is not trivial.  Here is some supporting evidence:

If you look at this post where Avet tested their drags dry vs greased: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0

They noted heat tinting on the drag plates.   Just to reach the first level of tinting in air with 304 stainless, you need to reach over 500 degrees Fahrenheit! (here is one reference: http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=140)  These are moderate runs (75-100 yards at 25-30 MPH) at the recommended drag settings.  As a caveat, I don't know what stainless alloy Avet is using for their drag plates, and therefore the we don't know exact temp that tinting will occur - but I am guessing that it is probably not that different.  They also noted drag grease being thrown off - another indication that the temp was over 500 and past the dropping point of drag grease.

Stainless steel and carbon fiber in resin are both poor conductors of heat.   Put then in an environment with poor air circulation, and they will just keep getting hotter.  The amount of line on the spool limits the amount of time the drags can run, so the system has a built in limit before there is a cooling off period.

The Avets still worked after several of these runs. so it seems the strategy of using heat resistant components, and not worrying so much about cooling is mostly working.  This amount of heat may make the stainless less corrosion resistant,  melt all the grease off the drag and any local bearings, and might degrade the epoxy gluing on the fiber washer,  but the damage is probably minimal.

I would be curious if you have ever seen heat tinting on stainless drag washers in the star drag reels, especially on the upgraded stacks that can run at higher settings.

[Alto Mare]

I hear you on the dust shields. Yes, it would be nice if you could find those numbers.
Thanks Dave.

Sal

Hi Sal,

I found my calculations,  but I  don't  trust them enough to post them.   I don't want to mislead folks.   FWIW, I am fairly comfortable in my belief that the heat generated for even moderate bluewater use is not trivial.  Here is some supporting evidence:

If you look at this post where Avet tested their drags dry vs greased: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0

They noted heat tinting on the drag plates.   Just to reach the first level of tinting in air with 304 stainless, you need to reach over 500 degrees Fahrenheit! (here is one reference: http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=140)  These are moderate runs (75-100 yards at 25-30 MPH) at the recommended drag settings.  As a caveat, I don't know what stainless alloy Avet is using for their drag plates, and therefore the we don't know exact temp that tinting will occur - but I am guessing that it is probably not that different.  They also noted drag grease being thrown off - another indication that the temp was over 500 and past the dropping point of drag grease.

Stainless steel and carbon fiber in resin are both poor conductors of heat.   Put then in an environment with poor air circulation, and they will just keep getting hotter.  The amount of line on the spool limits the amount of time the drags can run, so the system has a built in limit before there is a cooling off period.

The Avets still worked after several of these runs. so it seems the strategy of using heat resistant components, and not worrying so much about cooling is mostly working.  This amount of heat may make the stainless less corrosion resistant,  melt all the grease off the drag and any local bearings, and might degrade the epoxy gluing on the fiber washer,  but the damage is probably minimal.

I would be curious if you have ever seen heat tinting on stainless drag washers in the star drag reels, especially on the upgraded stacks that can run at higher settings.

Lots of good information, thanks Dave.
About the last part of your comment, I did receive the Tank back from Dominick from his last trip. Dominick did mention that at some point while fighting a Tuna, the star became very hot to the touch.
The reel was loaded with the latest upgrades.
When I examined the reel, the washers looked fine:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14423.msg158337#msg158337
Thanks again Dave, your input and many others here is always appreciated.

Sal
Interesting about the tinting, I have seen some brown dogs on a lever drag reel

[Robert Janssen]

...I am fairly comfortable in my belief that the heat generated for even moderate bluewater use is not trivial...

Yes, that is quite right. This has been up for discussion before. (and initially scoffed at by some  )

The heat generated in reels can be quite substantial. I have previously written that I myself have conducted many tests under controlled circumstances and found that tempeartures can reach and in some cases occasionally exceed 200 degrees Celsius. Which isn't to say that they always do; only that they can.

This exagerated test reel became so hot that the plastic bearing retainer as well as some of the line on the spool melted.

[STRIPER LOU]

Here are some approximate tempering colors along with tempratures for carbon steel. These are very similar to most standard Stainless Steels.
If you are seeing these colors, these are the approximate temps it takes to achieve them:

Dark straw  470f
Dark brown 510f
Dark purple 550f
Dark blue    570f

I would think if your seeing any of these colors on you SS drag washers its gotten pretty darn hot. A light straw would be somewhere in the 400F range.
.....................Lou

[Dominick]

Lots of good information, thanks Dave.
About the last part of your comment, I did receive the Tank back from Dominick from his last trip. Dominick did mention that at some point while fighting a Tuna, the star became very hot to the touch.
The reel was loaded with the latest upgrades.
When I examined the reel, the washers looked fine:

I have to say I did not touch the star.  I was observing the fish taking line and I was not too concerned with the amount of line going out.  I was distracted and looked back and saw that about half the line had gone out when I saw the mate reach over to adjust the star.  I saw him jerk his hand away then grab a bottle of water and pour it on the side plate and star.  At that point Dave who had the rod at that point started to gain line on the fish.  After he got tired and handed off the rod to me I continued the battle and boated the fish.  The tank worked beautifully for me.  I also tightened the drag during the death spiral so I am figuring the mate had loosened the drag when the line was down on the spool.  I don't know what this adds to the discussion but it was fun reliving it.  I'm going back on the 13th for another round.  Dominick

[Alto Mare]

Lots of good information, thanks Dave.
About the last part of your comment, I did receive the Tank back from Dominick from his last trip. Dominick did mention that at some point while fighting a Tuna, the star became very hot to the touch.
The reel was loaded with the latest upgrades.
When I examined the reel, the washers looked fine:

I have to say I did not touch the star.  I was observing the fish taking line and I was not too concerned with the amount of line going out.  I was distracted and looked back and saw that about half the line had gone out when I saw the mate reach over to adjust the star.  I saw him jerk his hand away then grab a bottle of water and pour it on the side plate and star.  At that point Dave who had the rod at that point started to gain line on the fish.  After he got tired and handed off the rod to me I continued the battle and boated the fish.  The tank worked beautifully for me.  I also tightened the drag during the death spiral so I am figuring the mate had loosened the drag when the line was down on the spool.  I don't know what this adds to the discussion but it was fun reliving it.  I'm going back on the 13th for another round.  Dominick

I believe it is very much related, we are staying within the discussion.
Thanks Dominick.
Sal

[Tightlines667]

Heat is particuarily problematic in star drag reels, and can result in a star that can not be turned on the gear sleeve, and high/jerry drag right at the point in the fight (after much line is out), when one should be backing off on the star.

My first experience with this phenomenon was watching my dad catch a 523lb Blu Marlin on a stock 9/0 spooled w/80lb (IGFA ANDE) as a child.  His right hand slipped when cranking, and his forearm briefly contacted the star.  This immediately burned a near perfect star into his skin (I will try to load a photo when I can get access to my home computer).  Water was poured on the reel, which caused a little sizzle, and steam, and the fish was eventually brought to gaff.  










Dominick's story reminded me of this one.

*Don't mean to threadjack.

Heat is an important consideration for the design of any big game fishing reel.  You can't have something for nothing, and increased drag settings with the same speed/length/duration run will inevitably result in more heat generated.

[TomT]

We all need to be "lucky" enough to hook a fish that will make the star hot to the touch.   Never caught a tuna over 50 #'s, but after a long run by a 55# wahoo the star was getting hot.
TomT