HELP anyone ID this reel?

[Capt Ahab]

All stainless  - no marking anywhere.  Owned by my local reel repair shop and he thinks it is from the 1940s but again, not sure.

Let me know if you have any ideas or need additional info

[Tightlines667]

Cool looking reel.  I don't want to venture a guess, but the handle arm, handle retaining nut, and stand all look familar.  We're there any markings on the reel at all?  Have you cracked it open?  May be a pflueger or Montague or maybe a Japanese made reel from the 50s?

[Shark Hunter]

The stand mounted on the lower crossbars is something I haven't seen before.
I'm sure The experts will chime in.

[Capt Ahab]

Cool looking reel.  I don't want to venture a guess, but the handle arm, handle retaining nut, and stand all look familar.  We're there any markings on the reel at all?  Have you cracked it open?  May be a pflueger or Montague or maybe a Japanese made reel from the 50s?

Reel has been completely taken apart and there are no markings on the interior or exterior

[Penn Chronology]

I see Pflueger style, Ocean City style and Penn style all in the same reel. I would bet a Occupied Japan reel--post-1952--otherwise it would say made in Occupied Japan. After 1952, reels coming out of Japan no longer had to be marked as such by law. Of course that is a guess. I never saw one of these before.

[Bryan Young]

I don't know either, but it's a beauty.

[basto]

The stand mounted on the lower crossbars is something I haven't seen before.
I'm sure The experts will chime in.

I have seen that on Surecatch bait casters and others from China.

[Capt Ahab]

Another photo

[Tightlines667]

I see Pflueger style, Ocean City style and Penn style all in the same reel. I would bet a Occupied Japan reel--post-1952--otherwise it would say made in Occupied Japan. After 1952, reels coming out of Japan no longer had to be marked as such by law. Of course that is a guess. I never saw one of these before.

This stand style, alomg with the slotted mountimg screws is common on many different older reels including early Pflueger, Monty, and many others, many ofriends the other external parts appear to have design elements taken from various manufacturers... looking at the reel as a whole, my tendency is towards a foreign (likely Japanese, possibly Chinese) production reel from the mid 50s to early 60s period.  It seems reasonable that copied features were from patents that had expired, or were different enough in appearance not to draw attention to possible copyright infringement issues.  This practice was commonplace in post war, and post occupied Japan.  So we have an educated guess.  Someone over on ORCA may be able to shed a little more light on its orgin?  It looks like this was a production reel, and not a one off, end of day, prototype, or salesmen sample.  Of course this is merely speculation.

[Penn Chronology]

This stand style, alomg with the slotted mountimg screws is common on many different older reels including early Pflueger, Monty, and many others, many ofriends the other external parts appear to have design elements taken from various manufacturers... looking at the reel as a whole, my tendency is towards a foreign (likely Japanese, possibly Chinese) production reel from the mid 50s to early 60s period.  It seems reasonable that copied features were from patents that had expired, or were different enough in appearance not to draw attention to possible copyright infringement issues.  This practice was commonplace in post war, and post occupied Japan.  So we have an educated guess.  Someone over on ORCA may be able to shed a little more light on its orgin?  It looks like this was a production reel, and not a one off, end of day, prototype, or salesmen sample.  Of course this is merely speculation.   

Interesting that you mentioned patents. I do not feel the Japanese or Chinese cared much about patents. Patents are only good in the country they are filed in, unless they are specifically written International Patents and then declaring a Patent Infringement across borders can turn into a very expensive infringement case. The Japanese regularity copied products so well that some people do not consider them copies, they are considered "counterfeits", example the Mitchell 300 reels that came out of Japan in the 1950's made by Seiko.

This particular reel is strange. it may never have been released in the USA. The skill level of craftsman in Asia is sometimes scary. They can create a masterpiece and then sell it for $4.00.

[Tightlines667]

This stand style, alomg with the slotted mountimg screws is common on many different older reels including early Pflueger, Monty, and many others, many ofriends the other external parts appear to have design elements taken from various manufacturers... looking at the reel as a whole, my tendency is towards a foreign (likely Japanese, possibly Chinese) production reel from the mid 50s to early 60s period.  It seems reasonable that copied features were from patents that had expired, or were different enough in appearance not to draw attention to possible copyright infringement issues.  This practice was commonplace in post war, and post occupied Japan.  So we have an educated guess.  Someone over on ORCA may be able to shed a little more light on its orgin?  It looks like this was a production reel, and not a one off, end of day, prototype, or salesmen sample.  Of course this is merely speculation.   

Interesting that you mentioned patents. I do not feel the Japanese or Chinese cared much about patents. Patents are only good in the country they are filed in, unless they are specifically written International Patents and then declaring a Patent Infringement across borders can turn into a very expensive infringement case. The Japanese regularity copied products so well that some people do not consider them copies, they are considered "counterfeits", example the Mitchell 300 reels that came out of Japan in the 1950's made by Seiko.

This particular reel is strange. it may never have been released in the USA. The skill level of craftsman in Asia is sometimes scary. They can create a masterpiece and then sell it for $4.00.

Mike,
I was hoping you might she'd a little light on the prevalence of post war Japanese copy cat reels with respect to US Patent enfringement concerns. 

It seems to me that this practice doesn'the fly as readily today in the US, European, Australian, New Zealand markets.  Maybe it is the modern day consumer that drives this, since apparently international law has some gaps.  Certainly there are laws that affect import and distribution of products here in the US and elsewhere?

[Penn Chronology]

I was hoping you might she'd a little light on the prevalence of post war Japanese copy cat reels with respect to US Patent enfringement concerns.  

It seems to me that this practice doesn'the fly as readily today in the US, European, Australian, New Zealand markets.  Maybe it is the modern day consumer that drives this, since apparently international law has some gaps.  Certainly there are laws that affect import and distribution of products here in the US and elsewhere?

I am sure there are people here better qualified than me to answer this question; but, I will give my opinion.

The post-war Japanese reels I have seen are not usually direct copies. Especially when talking copying existing American reels. They are similar and based on American products; but, not 100% counterfeits like a few of the European spinning reel copies made in Occupied Japan. The USA spinning reels market was non-existent in the pre-war years, so there was nothing for the Japanese to steal in the good old USA. There were fisherman in the USA fishing with spinning reels before the war; but, those reels were imported. All USA made spinning reels are post-war.

Using the term, Occupied Japan, is an interesting term, because they were Occupied mostly by the USA. I would think that rather than stealing American products, in the beginning the Japanese were working with American companies to create products for the American markets at lower costs and lower quality. Most products coming to America from the post-war era to about the mid-1960's were junk. The products like the Olympic (Mitchell 300) copy and the earlier International 100 (Mitchel Series 3 counterfeit) both made by Ueno Seiko were few and far between and possibly terminated because of law suits. Consequently, Japanese knock offs mostly look like bad copies.

Funny thing about the Ueno Seiko Mitchell copies. They were so close that I have been told the parts were interchangeable between them and the Japanese parts were almost made to the same engineering quality as the French reel. The Japanese Seiko models even had a couple of improvements over the Mitchell 300. The Japanese reels had extra lubrication points. The Mitchell 300 is lubed by removing the rear screw. A Japanese International 100 can be lubed without removal of that screw. The Japanese reel also has a line clip located near the bail lever. But, these reels are the exception, rather than the rule. IMHO

In the 1960's a sharing between American Companies and Japan started growing more and more. Penn had affiliations in Japan that can be seen with the 400 Series of closed face freshwater spinning reels that Penn marketed in the 1960's.


Looking at these 1960's Penn reels. they appear to be American products, sold in American packaging.

But they were a shared product with the parts made in Japan, shipped here to Penn and then assembled and packaged like any other American made reel.


Moving into the modern age, Asian products take on a life of their own and many people feel they are superior to American products.

The Japanese people are brilliant craftsmen and I believe they have shown that to the world; but, their respect for other countries patents is questionable... .