VERY THOROUGH REVIEW of the PENN CLASH 8000 Spinning Reel . . .

[johndtuttle]

As of late, I see narcissism in most of Alan H's Reviews, he seems quick to dispose of replies attempting to negate his findings, I think he feels powerful in the idea of being against...more directly feels he is some daunting shadow for every reel manufacturer. Maybe a god complex, after thwarting Canyon reels from bringing destruction to his followers.

Lol. Seriously though, can I get sued for this Dominick?


Before every review, are we going to have a full page of embellished melodrama of, "they released an OFFICIAL STATEMENT because of me, me directly!", getting threatened, and everything has to go to his lawyer before a single picture is seen?...He warns of the industry standard of self-evaluation by manufacturers, but forgets the industry standard that almost all critics find, nothing sells better than a bad review.

Alan H. does an amazing, meticulous job evaluating reels and has brought the industry forward, but things may have gone to his head.

-Scott

We all can get a little emotional about our toys and don't always have the most scientific method for testing that meets a rigorous protocol. We develop favorites and biases that creep into our point of view and don't always explain them or sometimes even know they exist, we are only human after all.

A reel review is not objective science, it is filled with subjective choices many of which are hidden from the casual reader without the background to realize it. Things like eared drag washers (which save weight and space) are presented as "cheapening" of the reel to get extra money out of the consumer rather than being a brilliant solution in a beautiful drag etc etc etc as there are countless examples of this.

So this was probably the worst review Alan has done in the sense half of it is rants that are unrelated to the reel or seem to be non-issues to paint Penn in the worst light he can... or bringing up old nonsense from years ago that is still presented in such a self-promoting way as to make Alan seem like the Keeper of some Flame of Reel Justice that the vast majority could care less about....regardless that the issues were resolved years ago publicly. Why bring it up and not the resolution if not to create a bias in the reader's mind?

He even threatens Penn with a smear piece if they dare challenge him at the end! Which of course, the complaints he threatens to expose would not be possible if Penn did not have a public forum where all of their customers with issues are sent and the issues publicly discussed and resolved. BDoutdoors has the only other public forums in a similar fashion/scale to my knowledge, but they are not remotely as focused on customer service and budget spinners as the Penn SOL forum where simple defects of inexpensive and mass produced reels are universally resolved to make the customer happy. Basically he threatens using their great and transparent customer service against them.

Very disappointed in "Alan Hawk" an anonymous "Pen Name".

[MarkT]

I wish he would stick all those intro paragraphs about things unrelated to the current review under his blog or news sections.  The reel reviews aren't in any kind of chronological order so these asides, rants, updates, etc often don't have any context.
Yes, I feel that the eared drag washers are a good thing and not something done on the cheap although they may help save money... it's still a better design.

[ez2cdave]

Faults that were pointed out and documented.

(1) Grinding line roller

(2) Serrated screw used that damaged the reel and later kept loosening up ( verified as being "correct" from the schematic )

(3) The presence of a non-functional Spool Bearing

(4) "Made in China" on a tiny, easily-removable sticker

(5) Drag washers that wear more quickly ( same setup as in Conflict & Battle II )

(6) Probably some others I missed.

Alan Hawk was just as quick to praise the good things about the Clash and document them.

(1) Machined Brass Gears with micro-grooving for lubrication.

(2) Excellent line spooling.

(3) Water-tight seals.

(4) Function of the "wave-spring".

(5) Handle design.

(6) Others I may have missed.

All in all, it looks like a very thorough, detailed assessment of the reel.

[MarkT]

(1) Grinding line roller

==> Poor design, poor quality or both.

(2) Serrated screw used that damaged the reel and later kept loosening up ( verified as being "correct" from the schematic )

==> Is it a poor design or did he just crank it down too far? Penn could've/should've added a washer to deal with it.

(3) The presence of a non-functional Spool Bearing

==> Were they just looking to add a bearing to the specs for marketing purposes?  You see extraneous bearings all the time for that reason that serve no real purpose.  If it's going to be there it should at least work.  A washer underneath it would solve that.

(4) "Made in China" on a tiny, easily-removable sticker

==> You gotta wonder if they were trying to hide the fact that it's made in China.

(5) Drag washers that wear more quickly ( same setup as in Conflict & Battle II )

==> Not a 'real' fault. The eared drag washers utilize both surfaces for producing drag unlike in a standard drag stack. More drag with fewer washers isn't a design fault, It's a design win.  If properly greased they'll last a long time.

[newport]

Exactly! Also, let us not forget that he gave the gearing a 4 out of 5, as well. And with all his reviews, he gives both the good and the bad. I do think the whole "Made in China" sticker was needlessly picky, but it's typical of him to make mention and complain about such things. It wouldn't be an Alan Hawk review without one. His reel breakdown style is pretty consistent and if you follow his other reviews long enough you understand what to expect from one observation to the next. He's the kind of guy (and one of the reasons I like this site) that gives other less well known and copycat manufacturers an honest and fair judgement. Case in point: Omoto Severo, Okuma, and others. I then find it hard to believe he is biased against Penn. IMO, he gave the Clash a fair assessment, and wasn't any more negative than any other reviews.

[johndtuttle]

Faults that were pointed out and documented.

(1) Grinding line roller bad assembly at the factory, I am sure Penn is not happy about this.

(2) Serrated screw used that damaged the reel and later kept loosening up ( verified as being "correct" from the schematic )

used on thousands of other reel models in the field without issue or damaging the bail arm but could be a more sophisticated design. It looks like AH over did it to make his "point" imo

(3) The presence of a non-functional Spool Bearing

spool shims maybe 1/1000th of an inch out of spec. It happens when suppliers mess up but shouldn't have happened and Penn knows it. The drag still functions beautifully. The function of these type of bearings (seen in nearly every high end spinning reel) is to make the drag smoother at the high end. When the main shaft bends under high drag it keeps the spool moving smoother. The benefit may be small but it is real.

(4) "Made in China" on a tiny, easily-removable sticker

Completely non-issue. It is compliant with US Customs, is used on literally thousands of products, at most Penn was unsure if they were going to make the reel in Korea (with Abu reels) or in China when the mold was made <-- just a guess but I find it highly unlikely anything nefarious was going on. Almost nothing made in China has it molded in anymore. Stickers of one kind or another are used.

(5) Drag washers that wear more quickly ( same setup as in Conflict & Battle II )

Completely invented nonsense. The HT-100 drag washers are some of the finest there are. No documented higher wear rates (at least I have NEVER seen anyone actually wear out their drag). They are twice as thick as normal washers. Maybe (?) they make more dust but I want to meet the guy who has worn them out and shake his hand.

(6) Probably some others I missed.

He complained that Penn's rotor design was nonsense that doesn't work when he doesn't understand the "Techno Balanced Rotor"
design that has one arm set wider than the other to handle flex under load. The struts strengthen and lighten the rotor base to make this possible and allow lighter alloy to be used.

(7) Said that the comparable Spheros was 2 oz lighter.

The Spheros 10k holds 360 yards of 50# braid the Clash 8000 (reviewed) holds 465 yards of 50# braid or almost 30% more. The Clash 6000 holds 335 yards of 50# braid ( granted ~7% less) but is at least 3oz lighter than a Spheros 10k. Point being the Clash is lighter in weight, size for size for a given line capacity.

(8 ) Said the Clash was more expensive and not sealed so couldn't recommend it over a Spheros.

As above, if the proper 6k Clash is compared (on Amazon) it is less expensive by a few dollars than a Spheros 10K. If you compare the Clash 8k with 30% more capacity it is like $6 more. He also makes no mention that it is a trade of weight versus body seals. The Pinion assembly of the Clash is well protected top and bottom by sealed bearings but the body is only sealed with grease. The final decision is going to be the value of a body seal (on a reel not warranted for dunking) versus saving 3 oz which is quite a bit for a reel that weighs 22oz spooled.

Alan Hawk was just as quick to praise the good things about the Clash and document them.

(1) Machined Brass Gears with micro-grooving for lubrication. They are actually Aluminum Bronze like a Daiwa Saltiga/Isla but Penn has been soft pedaling this to not tip their competition. That a $200 reel uses such good gears should be pretty big news like he made it out to be in the $700 Daiwa Isla...

(2) Excellent line spooling. But said it was only an average caster, meaning only as good as a Saltiga...but not quite as good as a Shimano. The difference in casting may be due to spool lip design, but the benefits of tighter loops on the spool are less wind knots and less digging in of line under high drag are real benefits.

(3) Water-tight seals. Of the Pinon Assembly and Drag but the main gear box is old school grease her up to maintain.

(4) Function of the "wave-spring".

(5) Handle design.

(6) Others I may have missed.

All in all, it looks like a very thorough, detailed assessment of the reel.

So, you can see he missed quite a lot and instead spent more time insulting Penn, imo.



best regards from a shameless Penn Homer 

[ez2cdave]

BOTTOM LINE . . . Too much $$$ for a reel with that many problems . . .

Does that make me a "Penn Hater"?  

NO, but Penn HAD a great reputation, when everything was Made In The USA, but that has been "SLIPPING", ever since they outsourced production and started using "re-branded" reels, or poorly-designed models that never should have been released for sale, until the problems were thoroughly tested and resolved.

The result is that it "cheapens" ( not making it less expensive ) Penn's entire product line and customers lose faith in the company and it's products.

[johndtuttle]

BOTTOM LINE . . . Too much $$$ for a reel with that many problems . . .

Does that make me a "Penn Hater"? 

NO, but Penn HAD a great reputation, when everything was Made In The USA, but that has been "SLIPPING", ever since they outsourced production and started using "re-branded" reels, or poorly-designed models that never should have been released for sale, until the problems were thoroughly tested and resolved.

The result is that it "cheapens" ( not making it less expensive ) Penn's entire product line and customers lose faith in the company and it's products.

I think if you recognize that even the very, very best reels in the world typically have some (or a few) small  problems at introduction and that none of them are immune you might feel differently.

In the last year Daiwa has had a recall of the Saltiga Expedition due to mag seal problems and stiff reels ($1200 reel) the Shimano Stella ($1000) has had molding problems and seal leakage, the Saragosa has had rotor wobble and molding problems, Stradic FK has had defective line roller coatings (a recurrent problem for Shimano), the Spheros has had molding problems that should have never left the factory etc etc etc....So no one is immune.

Comparatively, a 5 cent washer fix for new spool shims (even though the drag works fine) and a 2 cent SS washer for the bail (maybe)  for those that want to crank it down and you have pretty small potatoes in comparison to most of those above, isn't it?

Handles are not snapping off and stems breaking like they are on Fin Nor Lethal 100s, are they?

I don't know one single person that has been using the Clash that isn't satisfied so far other than Alan Hawk who looks like he took a torque wrench to his line roller screw and (in this case) and has not demonstrated to me that he was, at least, as diligent as he could have been due to the numerous errors or misunderstandings of design that he demonstrated in his review.

But hey, if the Clash is not your cup of tea no worries. Just go fishing and share your stoke with whatever floats your boat.



ps I would add that if you think Penn has been slipping you haven't been paying attention in the conventional reel market where they are setting the standard with Made in USA reels (Torque) and value with their offshore reels like the Fathom and the Squalls.

[alantani]

and people wonder why i stay away from spinners.......   

[ez2cdave]

and people wonder why i stay away from spinners.......   

Now, Alan, I'm sure you have run across some "SHOCKING" things in conventional reels, haven't you

[Porthos]

and people wonder why i stay away from spinners.......   

Uhhh...Alan...there's photographic evidence of you holding a Okuma Cedros CJ-65S next to your white seabass being held up by Evan on the SOA at Cedros Island no less. 

[Big Tim]

Nice SPINNER Alan  fish aint so bad either. I have a nameless friend that has been in the fishing industry for many years and hates PENN because of the past and labels all PENN'S as crap. I lent him my Confict 6000 on a Tsunami Airwave elite rod (which thought was a cheap POS). He came back from San Diego and purchased the exact same set up  Go figure. All reviews have some type of biased opinions, or so it seems.

BT

[MarkT]

Although Alan fished the spinner, he didn't say he was opening it up!

[ez2cdave]

Uhhh...Alan...there's photographic evidence of you holding a Okuma Cedros CJ-65S next to your white seabass being held up by Evan on the SOA at Cedros Island no less. 

Well, it looks like TRUTH is finally out . . . Alan is a "CLOSET SPINNER" guy !!!

LOL !!!