Penn Squidder 146 Build

[jurelometer]

I really hate to profess my ignorance, but............In the search for torque multiplication a smaller pinion and larger main would do the trick.  To increase the retrieval rate wouldn't you increase the pinion and decrease the main?   Personally I want more line on the spool per revolution of the crank/handle for my Squidder.   ie: 15p/30m = 2:1 ratio.  16p/30m = 1.87:1 ratio. Am I having a dyslexic moment here?

In which case there is plenty of room for another tooth on the pinion in the Squidder side plate.  Maybe even two teeth with some minor massaging.  The base circle remains the same.  The over-all diameter increases.  I don't know how the tooth depth and contact face would be effected.  As for backlash.  Well, it is Penn after all.  The slop and flex in the stock Penn assembly has the backlash flopping around like a fish hitting the deck.  An upgraded drag stack and alternating drop double dogs would cushion the back lash slam nicely.  As for strength there is higher quality stainless with a higher nickle content on the market.  Shouldn't be difficult.  

Not ignorant at all- this topic seems to come up a lot here, and I think you touched on the possible issues of just messing with the number of teeth.    

Changing the ratio of teeth is not really the point of the exercise.  The pitch circle ratios need to change and new teeth have to be designed to accommodate the pitch circle ratio, center distance and various performance aspects.  Then the tooth count takes care of itself.

A bit more detail  based on my very limited knowledge of gear theory:

The gear ratio is defined by the ratio of the pitch circle diameters (about middle of the teeth).  To go from 3.3:1 to 5:1, the pinion pitch circle needs to be about two thirds of its current size.  You can keep the same base diameter and decrease the pitch circle diameter by going with smaller teeth, but that is not going to buy much of a change in pitch ratio before you start shredding gears because of tiny teeth.  

Even if there was enough backlash space to harvest room or a tooth or two (I would guess not),  slipping in a few more/less teeth is not really a great  option.  The sides of the teeth actually have a specific curve to them (an involute curve) - that allows the load to stay consistent as the gears rotate.  There is a relationship between the curves on the pinion and main gear teeth such that the load follows a straight diagonal line  (force line) between the base circles.  The amount of angle on the force line determines how fat or skinny the teeth are.   It all has to work together.

From: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Involute_wheel.gif -author Claudio Rocchini


So once the gears are redesigned for the ratio, strength, etc.   the tooth count takes of itself, other than needing some sort of prime/co-prime number to ensure that there  is not pattern of engagement that leads to uneven tooth wear.  (Fun fact- the prime number requirement is why most geared systems including fishing reels have such strange-looking gear ratios- like 4.73:1).  There is gear design software out there that will figure all this out for you, but the stuff I have seen doesn't let you select a fixed center distance.

But you can actually estimate the current pinion pitch circle, and calculate what it would have to be to get the gear ratio you want.   I would expect that you will find that there is not enough room.

  I think the equation would be P=2*( C/(1+G)) where
P= Pinion pitch circle diameter
C= center distance between spindle and gear sleeve/post
G= gear ratio


There are other problems getting the pinion to spool junction to work, if you shrink the pinoin diameter as well.  


Hence the call for a squidmaster!  This changes the center distance - allowing for a larger gear ratio without smaller pinion and/or teeth.

By the way....what's up with the slotted crank arm and knurled thumb screw lock down.  I think I need two.

Those things are cool!  I have wondered if it is possible to come up with an updated version that is more quickly-adjusted, and counterbalanced in the short arm position.  Haven't been able to figure out a good sturdy design.  Any ideas?

-J

[Tightlines667]

Great explanation there.  Making simple sense..
Well as simple as...

P=2*( C/(1+G))

Of some of the mysteries of the simple gear.

& complete with an animation no less.

Thanks for sharing.

John

[mike1010]

This is great stuff.  Thanks.

Mike

[surfcaster]

Cool stuff, So the Squidmaster would be Almost like a newell 220 but with a stronger sideplate & 1 piece frame?
   

[Ron Jones]

Another thing that proper gear design contributes to is smoothness. If the wrong curve is chosen for the side of the teeth they will never be able to be lapped smooth. In the military, gear train smoothness (which means quietness) is considered heavily in every part of design. It does seem like you can put points on a disk and have a gear, and you can, but it probably won't be a very good gear.
Ron

[jurelometer]

Another thing that proper gear design contributes to is smoothness. If the wrong curve is chosen for the side of the teeth they will never be able to be lapped smooth. In the military, gear train smoothness (which means quietness) is considered heavily in every part of design. It does seem like you can put points on a disk and have a gear, and you can, but it probably won't be a very good gear.
Ron

Yep.   Exactly.

If we take a look at the animation in my previous reply, it shows how the curve is defined.   Think of the force line (with the moving arrow) as a string being unwound of the base curve of one gear and onto the other.  The dot at the center of the arrow defines the shape of the curve for both teeth.  A curve defined by a piece of string being wound on a circle is called an involute curve.

Around 1750, the mathematician Leonhard Euler figured out that this use of an involute curve on gears would provide a steady transfer of power without any jumps or hops.  Still in use today.

This just inspired me to do a quick read of Euler's biography:

Euler was definitely a character-  he was picked on unmercifully in the Prussian court for being the math dork that he was.  The king took to referring  Euler as Cyclops (Euler was blind in one eye) after Euler screwed up the engineering for a fountain.  Voltaire (one of western literature's greatest satirists) happened to be hanging around the Prussian court, and was quite willing to torment Euler for a bit of extra sport.   

So we should all throw a little positive karma Lenny Euler's way whenever we savor the smooth gearing on our favorite reels.  Give him the last laugh.   And support your local math dork!

-J

[anglingarchitect]

Good story, thanks.

mark

[jurelometer]

Cool stuff, So the Squidmaster would be Almost like a newell 220 but with a stronger sideplate & 1 piece frame?
   

My ideal definition of a squidmaster would be a reel that could reuse as many squidder and jigmaster parts as possible.   The only parts that would HAVE to be new is a slightly altered spool spindle  to allow the bridge plate to be outside of the spool, and an adapter that would allow a jigmaster right sideplate to fit onto a squidder frame.    This would be an open design that any supplier could build parts for, and that existing jigmaster and squidder parts can be used!

This reel would be similar to the size/speed of  the Newell 2xx reel with the option of a more rigid frame, and widely available replacement parts and customizations.

Now it sounds like Alan C is looking at going a bit further on this concept and making a fully integrated kit.  My hope is that the open design concept is embraced- but I am sure that folks will be pretty excited with whatever Alan comes up with.

-J

[MarkT]

Cool stuff, So the Squidmaster would be Almost like a newell 220 but with a stronger sideplate & 1 piece frame?
   

That's called a Pro Gear 255!

[Ron Jones]

It is amazing how historical figures tend to come in groups of time. I'd never believe that Voltaire and Euler where contemporaries. I bet in a hundred years they will be talking about Alan and Sal as contemporaries.
Ron

[MarkT]

It is amazing how historical figures tend to come in groups of time. I'd never believe that Voltaire and Euler where contemporaries. I bet in a hundred years they will be talking about Alan and Sal as contemporaries.
Ron

Duh!

[mikeysm]

The best way to achieve your goal is to copy the accurate squidder magnums side plates. Utilize Alan's stainless sleeve and 5.1 gear set and bridge. Yes a custom spool is needed and possibly the frame. Also you can just buy a reel from someone who already builds something close. But this will truly be a custom Penn reel. With a selection of gear ratios and drag options and durability unmatched by any manufacture available.

Mike

[ez2cdave]

Exciting stuff !  When will these become available ?

[steelfish]

Nice, I just got me a 146 squidder in pretty good shape on my visit to Mexicali's flea market, paired with a original peen 20# stick