Help with Penn senators drag rebuild

[SeaCubed Fishing]

As I am new to the site, I'm sure this has been beaten to death. First time I've done drag replacement on Penn senators or any star drags at that matter. Currently, I just did a 113h. An old one with the external accessible drags. Pretty sure first time it has been done as it had the 3 thick drag washers in it. I replaced them with the HT-100 5!drag washers and 5 metal. Everything seems to go fine but I am only see 14lbs Max when fully cranked down. I believe I was able to get that with the old shot drags so I feel like something isn't right. I did indeed use Cal's drag grease between the washers and metal. Maybe too thick and first but then went back in and wiped most away. Wondering if that is an issue or not. I know there's a lot of debate on greasing or not. Is that a cause of slipping? And if so will that "break" in. I am looking for any suggestions as to why I can't get good drag out of it. I would like to hit 14 well before maxing out the star. What should be expected with these new drags? I have a bunch of 114h I bought kits for but want to get this one right before moving on. I've been reading through as much of the threads as I can and they are very helpful but I am stumped and frustrated.

Note, I am testing drag with a spring scale pulling right off the reel which is filled with 30lb mono.

Thank you in advance for any help or advise.

[Bryan Young]

Some of the older gears do not have very deep slots in the main gear which the washers are installed. If this is the case the eared washe will hang up and you will not get full use of all of the drag surfaces.   You should get an easy 20# of drag.

[cbar45]

To add to what Bryan said, try checking to see that the thickest keyed washer is placed at the bottom of the stack.

i.e. The stack should go: SOFT--thick keyed--SOFT--eared--SOFT--keyed--SOFT--eared--SOFT--keyed.

The above order produces an easy 20 lb. of drag on all my older 113H's, (steel gears and outside access drags).

Assuming you are using Penn washers, placing the thicker keyed washer on the bottom usually gives enough height for the first eared washer to function properly--if indeed that is the cause of your problem.

Chad

[SeaCubed Fishing]

Very good information. I was looking at that ear and slot issue and was aware of it but thought I had enough thickness under it. But I guess depending on how much it compresses I could be skipping the bottom drag washer. The new set of Ht-100 I do not believe came with a thicker keyed washer. I think they were all the same. But I do have the thicker ones that came out of the reel.'may have to swap. Will try that out and report back.

Thank you guys. Grease or no grease? Or grease and wipe off? Also what is the important of changing the fiber washer under the main drag? Does that play a role in the drag pressure also? I did not buy one.

[cbar45]

The drag kit with the thicker keyed washer is Penn part # 6-113hsp.

At least that is how they were when I last ordered them a few years back; things may have changed:



Let us know how you make out.

Chad

[cbar45]

P.S.

Saturating each soft washer with grease, then patting off the excess works for me.

Unless it is noticeably worn or damaged, the stock undergear washer will work fine with the drag stack you have.

Some folks prefer to swap this washer out for one made of Delrin.

A Delrin undergear washer won't do much to produce more drag, but it is tougher than the stock washer and allows the line to peel off very smoothly throughout the entire drag range--a plus if you intend to fish at high drag settings.

Chad

[Alto Mare]

P.S.

Saturating each soft washer with grease, then patting off the excess works for me.

Unless it is noticeably worn or damaged, the stock undergear washer will work fine with the drag stack you have.

Some folks prefer to swap this washer out for one made of Delrin.

A Delrin undergear washer won't do much to produce more drag, but it is tougher than the stock washer and allows the line to peel off very smoothly throughout the entire drag range--a plus if you intend to fish at high drag settings.

Chad

An under gear washer should give smoothness, not additional drag.
A Delrin washer is an improvement for low and high drag settings. Delrin is a good choice for all star reels.
Just my opinion, do as you please.

Sal

[ALASKAFISHMAN]

Just listening in, great advice...

Brent

[foakes]

Like Sal Sez --

Those Delrin UG washers are an excellent, cheap upgrade.

They offer no drag -- and the UG washer is not designed to apply drag -- unless your drag stack is not working -- then any star pressure will allow the UG washer to apply drag pressure indirectly -- but this is far from ideal.

Sal taught us to think of the Delrin UG washer as a bearing that the main gear rides on.

Sort of like an almost indestructable hard nylon washer.

Just install dry, with no grease.

A little grease will work its way down there when fishing -- but a little will not hurt the function.

Or, a very thin SS washer with a very lightly Cal's greased CF also works well -- like Alan offers on his Gen 2 kit.

Lot to learn here!

Best,

Fred

[SeaCubed Fishing]

Thank you all for the advice.

When cleaning out the whole reel. Which components get grease or which parts will grease hinder the operation.

Just trying to be as effective as possible.

Thank you all.

[broschro]

I like to apply a thin coat of grease on everything inducing the plate itself.

[foakes]

I like to apply a thin coat of grease on everything inducing the plate itself.

For me, I use Yamaha "Marine" grease for everything except the drag stack -- which gets Cal's.

Yamaha is very inexpensive at around $8 -$10 for 14 oz..

It washes out and cleans up easily when service time rolls around -- but stays in place during usage -- and is Salt Water resistant.  The Penn grease does the same very well.

Grease the screws, underside of rings, inside side-plates all surfaces such as the bridge, etc., the stand bolts and lugs, etc.  This does two things -- helps to prevent future issues, snapped or broken parts when disassembling -- and protects all parts in order to keep operating even under tough conditions.

Be careful with grease around the dog, dog spring, or clutch springs -- just a drop or two of synthetic oil. 321, or equivilent works well on these.  I also put a couple of drops of oil on the bridge sleeve post.

For salt water usage, all bearings and bushings get grease also.  They may not be as fast as with oil -- but that is not necessary for the Salt -- and these bearings last possibly 8 times longer than with oil that will wash out.

Best,

Fred

[SeaCubed Fishing]

So I pulled the 113h back apart. I do believe one issue was the eyed washer bottoming out in the main gear slot. I ended up putting a thick keyed washer and a thin keyed washer together as the first metal washer inn the stack. So I have drag washer-thick keyed-thin keyed-drag washer-eye washer-drag-thin keyed-drag-eye washer-drag-keyed washer. It makes the top eye washer barely in the stack but I think it's staying in the slot so far. Im getting 15lbs pretty easy. I guess I could  get 20 if I really lock it down. I'm just pulling right off the reel with the scale and the line is kinda loose so that may hurt some of my drag readings.

I'm thinking it's right now I hope..
Thanks for the help. Let's see if I can have better luck with a 114h

[cbar45]

SeaCubed--Thanks for the update, it sounds like you're on the right track. Also, you likely already know this--but for reference--here is the full drag assembly of an outside-access 113-H when upgraded to Penn's 5-stack.

The second keyed washer on the top of the stack is only for additional height, such that it takes the star only a few turns to go from light drag to complete free spool.

Note that before the star, there is no spacer or wavy thick washer as used on newer 113-H's without outside-access drags.

Sometimes parts get mixed up, especially if the reel has passed through more than a few different set of hands--a thought if you are still unable to pull 20 lbs. of drag with this reel.



Chad

[SeaCubed Fishing]

Chad.

Thank you for that info. So you are confident that a single thick keyed washer is enough to keep the eared washer high enough in the stack??? It looked really close hence why I added the second thin one with the first thick keyed. That is the only different between how I have it and you posted.

I also do have a spring washer under star. Reels been in the family since the 80s but obviously someone through a washer in the wrong spot. Is it a spring washer that goes between star and handle or just regular washer? Now maybe I am going nuts but do you have to crank the drag as tight as possible to expect 20lbs or should you being able to get 20 or close to without really cranking hard. I am having a tough time testing this drag as I get very inconsistent reads. Maybe not pulling the scale consistent enough.

Maybe I'm going nuts trying to see "20". I don't need 20 on a 113 I would just like to have 15 without turning the start almost all the way.

I will keep playing with it and try to get it better. This is the warmup for the reels I actually care for more at the time.

Ps. My 114h that are untouched so far are getting about 22-25 fully cranked down. 15lbs about a quarter turn out. The drags are original and I know should be changed, I just don't want the same issue when these reels are still getting enough drag for what I need them for.

Thanks all. It's something to pass the time until spring if nothing else