Mixed Senator history thread

[sdlehr]

1936 Penn markets their First Senator reel , a #115 ( 9/0) .


The GOOD ............ Perfect 1936 first year 9/0 Senator and box .  ( Ted )



The BAD ............a trio of 9/0's . left- right . 1938 with door knob handle 36/37 on top of box and 1939 with torpedo handle .  (Mike)



and the UGLY........... 1936 reel and box with tape and stains.  ((Ray)



the 1936 Catalog has the 9/0 Senator on the front.



A photo of a Penn employee working on a large Penn Senator . 14/0 -16/0 handle on the bench top and the counterweighted door knob 9/0 -12/0 handle in holder on top of bench would date 1938-9.

1937 12/0 with correct handle and one set of harness lugs . No rod to reel lugs. Hard to find reel and rare handle .

When looking for the old Senators take note of the position of the free spool lever and crank outlet relating to a vertical centre line compared to the later models. Early cranks are forward and free spool levers are backward of centre line.

This 12/0 reel came in the Lighthouse Box . It has been used but very little. Probably been on the rod and at sea as it has only the slightest signs of saltwater use except for the rod bracket bolts. I took it apart for its first time and there was a pencil number still on the brass. It is a 1937 made reel with a 1939 torpedo handle. It only has one set of lugs for a harness and the gears for 1937 were brass , after that they were steel. Old Cuttyhunk linen line was very clean and is still on and the reel is as found.

Other than the first box for the 9/0 in 36-37 all Senators of the first generation were sold in the Lighthouse boxes. Here is the set 4,6,9,10,12,14 & 16/0. If the price varied in the future years Penn stuck a printed sticker over the original printed label on the box .  ( The 1,2 & 3/0 came later in the colourful fisherman labelled black boxes)

Keep these historical posts coming. Fantastic to have you guys who know the Penn story inside out, sharing with us all. Have been looking at the ORCA site a lot lately as well, and marvel at the old reels. No CNC machining. All hand driven machines. I realise Penn were probably one of the first to get into mass production, but these are still a beautiful reminder of where our past-time has originated, and progressed from.
Fantastic reads!

Photos of a 1940 14/0 . The early 14/0's are one of the hardest to find. The 16/0 would be the only Senator harder to find.

Sal,

It would be very pleasant to have a set up like that and all new parts,  Just noticed the huge ball peen hammer in the foreground. That must be to put an end to any argument that might start over a reject part.?

Ray

...

I'm wondering if that setup with that large black coffee grind handle was used to install knobs on the handle ...it would make sense.

I'm wondering if that setup with that large black coffee grind handle was used to install knobs on the handle Undecided...it would make sense

Yes, Sal, I mean I was not there, but I believe that is for squeezing the rivet tail onto the handle knob shaft. With the right size rivet die, you could do it repeatedly without harming the wood knob. That particular tool goes back to the 1930's even though the picture is taken in the 1950's.

   Ha ha ha, Gotta love a clint eastwood fan from down unda. Got a good laugh, and in my opinion, they are all things of beauty and loaded with historical significance.



Very cool stuff, thanks for sharing Ray. Sal has a pic of my wood handled mid 40's 9/0, other than that I'm just a spectator here. Sorry for drooling on your reels Ray, but when I see old senators like yours, my jaw drops and the drool starts flowing. I'm sure Michael has a few that are jaw droppers also.

Thanks again for sharing part of your collection Ray. The phrase "too much of a good thing" doesn't apply to penn reels, so keep them coming please.

As far as Senators go, I am a Cave Man except for one 16/O presentation reel which I will post later in this thread. All my big Senators are pre-war, first generation reels. The fast easy way to tell the difference is looking straight on at the head plates.


                    The Senator 6/O on the left is a post 1948, second generation reel. The reel on the right was made previous to 1948. The dates I am quoting are according to changes made in the catalog illustrations, which may be slightly off. I feel the true separation between first and second generation Senators is WW II. The post war catalogs do not illustrate second gen Senators until 1949, but I feel the catalogs were slow to reflect what was available in the market place. It is that same old story, Penn never wasted anything back in those days, so all their products basically slowly evolved from one change to another, rather than just changing over in the exact year the catalogs says the changes exist (which makes it difficult when you are trying to specifically document a change).
                    For many years, the difference between first and second gen Senators has gone unnoticed. Collectors either ignored the difference or simply missed it. To me it was always a major difference but how much it affected the true scarcity of a particular model had to be proved, so six or seven years ago, myself and a few other collectors challenged ourselves to collect a complete set of First Generation Senators. To this day, only one of us (not Me or Ray) has completed the set from 4/O to 16/O.
                    Here is my set of First Gen Senators;

                    You will notice the 16/O is not there. My set of first gen Senators goes from 4/O to 14/O. What was really interesting was that no one had even seen one, except in the catalogs. We were beginning to think that no first gen 16/O existed until a find this year in Florida by a collector that lives in Oregon.
Here is the only First Generation build style 16/O that is known to have survived:


                    As for a used, 75 year old Big Game reel, it is not in bad shape...

1939 10/0 with semi-transparent Catlin torpedo knob. Torpedo handles were used from 1939.

1939 first gen. first year 6/0

12/0 with factory wooden log handle and stand has the wide bolt spacing for the big rod clamp circa 1939.

This is an early 2nd generation 12/0 . It has the early logo, the Rosewood torpedo handle knob , drilled 3 piece spool. The big difference to a first gen is the position of the handle & free spool lever.

Now that's a handle. Must be a really high quality wood to still look that good 75 years later.

I watched one with the log handle auction for very reasonable price one day and I didn't bid because I thought it was someones homemade franken-handle. Ignorance is bliss only if you stay ignorant, now I know better  

Hello Ted,

Yes the wooden log handle is a surprise . I have seen about half a dozen over the years. Definitely factory and only seen on 10/0 and 12/0's ....so far.

The Rosewood and semi-transparent catlin torpedo handles were fitted to some 250 yds. reels of 39/40 era too.


Ray

Sal,

Mike's got a killer 4/0 that i hope he will post and then we can move along into the 40's and 50's Senators. Glad you enjoy the reels and it's a pleasure to share.

Ray

OK Ray, Here is the 1938 Senator 113---4/O in its original Lighthouse box. These early Senators are built from German Silver rather than brass, but i think I mentioned that on another post.


              Only the 1938 reel used this handle, in 1939 Penn changed to the Torpedo handle knob, so these handle styles are fairly rare and valuable. Combine that with the original box and we can have a pretty good auction............


              The first 4/O logo is also different than what most Senator users are accustomed to seeing. This logo was used for a few years before it changed to a more modern style.


              The condition of the spool on this particular reel looks like it never had line on it but I can not prove that.


              This is the first Senator 4/O picture plate and notice the waffle style clicker button is used on this reel. No other Senator will use this style clicker button.


              A true first year Senator 4/O will have no markings on the bottom of the stand.

OK Superhook, that should do it. Now you can move to the 1940's and 1950's 

That sure is a nice 4/0 Mike.....I'm sure you must have several more senators that we'd all enjoy seeing.

                    I really wish I had more space because I would have more reels in my collection but unfortunately I have had to sell many. One of the ways I have been able to stay close to reels that I have sold is to try to sell my best ones to close friends. Here is one of those beauty's that I have to let go;

                    This is a New Old Stock 1949 Penn 114. What makes this particular reel very special is 1949 is the last year Penn used the Light House box and the first year of the new generation build style. So the 1949 model is a first and a last, which makes it a talking piece. Notice the original Penn Hang Tag is still with this reel;


                    Here is an example showing how Penn did a price change addition to the box label. Penn always reused old labels by simply add a sticker to the label with the new price.

I sold this reel about 7 years ago and have never come across another one this nice but I did make sure it went to a very good home.............

Here is another interesting reel from Ted ( Max Doubt)

Here is another interesting reel from Ted ( Max Doubt)

Dom, if Ray has only seen a half dozen of these handles and only on the 10/0 and 12/0, you know it's got to be rare .

      Another interesting tidbit about this log nob first generation 9/0 is it has the easy access drag washers.....I have seen lots of first gen 9/0 reels and have never found one with outside drag access.....till now.

      Thanks for posting that picture Sal.....I'm working on setting up photobucket.....someday reeeeel soon


      Dom, if you looked at the "before" picture the only thing recognizable is that log handle..........What you see is result of 3 hours of gentle fingertip massage therapy.

Sal,
   I'm basing most of what I say on Ted, Ray and Mikes knowledge.  When guys like this are willing to pass on Penn historical facts, I'm listening!  Like I do when the rest of you members talk reel repair/ tinkering. 
This place is a wealth of knowledge. 
Thanks
Dom

Some more goodies from Ted:

I'll let Ted fill you in.

Ted, 

You did a very good job on cleaning the Log knob 9/0 reel. It is a rare reel which links the shift from First generation internal drag to Second generation external drag. Penn would have had to make a separate mould for that side plate and it would have had such a small output before the second generation .  Amazing find. Thanks for sharing.

Ray

      Sal, those 4 different handles are from approx. 3-4 year time frame when penn was still experimenting with different 9/0 nobs in the late 30's....none of which ever went into production........ Only 4 doorknob 9/0 are known to exist, and approx. same amount of the tall skinny 9/0 nob, this is the only log nob 9/0 found so far, and rare 9/0 rosewood torpedo is very early 2nd gen..... I call them the Otto's Angels .


     Ray, somehow I expected you or Mike to end up with the log nob reel. You guys know what's mine is yours. I will offer to send it to Professor Mike for further examination and documentation, and somehow I think he'll take me up on that.  I'd offer to send it you for examination Ray, but just shipping it one way would cost more than the reel and I might never get it back outta your grip... lol

Ted,

If Mike gets his hands on it he will check it out thoroughly to make certain it is factory and not Hot rodded . ( Not likely)  You will get it back from Mike . I'd probably tuck it under my arm and shoot through or send back an Alvey.   There has been plenty of missed reels along with some rare finds over the years. Can't win them all . Photos are good .

Ray

There has been plenty of missed reels along with some rare finds over the years. Can't win them all . Photos are good .

Yes, there are many missing super rare Penn reels still sitting in someones shed or basement.

How about the Penn Senator 12/O used in the photo section of the 1939 edition of Harlan Major's book on Salt Water Tackle?



This reel probably was given away by the author and could be anywhere in the world. During the war, Harlan Major was instrumental in collecting fishing tackle and delivering it to GI's stationed in the Pacific so they could go fishing when they we not in combat. This old Senator could be sitting on some Pacific Island still in use today. This is the only 12/O I have ever seen with the doorknob handle.

Wow Mike, that is one cool 12/0. I had only previously heard rumor of this 12/0, but now seeing the actual reel is amazing !!

I can't wait to see some of your other war era senators. How bout a few pics of some 1/0, and 2/0 reels ??

Hard to find first year 3/0 Senator . No part numbers.



Pointed ends of Torepedo knob


400 yards stamped on foot


Drilled spool for line to tie to and coin edge counterweight.


This one was like new and came from Hawaii another one from the mainland was exactly the same except with an amber handle.

Wow, that's a rare 3/0 there Ray. Seems like any small pre war senator is a rare find, muchless one in that condition. How bout a 1/0 or 2/0 from this era ?? I know you're hiding a few of those Ray.

Ted,

I have not found a 1/0 with the drilled spool yet. I have 1/0 and  2/0's with coin edged counterweights . I think i have a 2/0 with a drilled spool ...somewhere. They also have stippled head plates but not stippled tail plates , no graphics . Next came handles with a plain counterweight with no lines at all then the counterweights with lines running the full circle. Most have pointed torpedo amber knobs with the odd red torpedo knob for the earliest models. I do have a 110 , 1/0 drilled spool in the box ( Thanks to Mike) When i find them i will photo and post.

Ray

Photos of Ted's 1942 mint 1/0 Senator

Mike,

It was not a reel you gave me but a NOS spool in the black box. Well tonight i found it and it is not drilled , it has a line post. It's looking more like the 1/0 and 2/0's did not have drilled spools. Found a very good early 2/0 with Penn tie on tag with line post.

Ray

Photo is from the Internet . Left Handed 1/0 with the original box Priced at $13.50 . After checking the catalogs , the L/H Senators of sizes 1/0 , 2/0 & 3/0 were $1.00 extra. 4/0 and up were $2.00 extra. The 1/0 was $12.50 from 1946-1950 . With that die cut Penn tag often seen on war era reels my guess would be 1946 although with the "Fair Trade Price" printed on the box it may date it later to 1949. The type "Senator" is printed on an angle which is correct for the early boxes.

Ted's 2/0 and box. Difficult to date exactly without the box price.  I'm thinking late 40's early 50's if it does not have part numbers . The type "SENATOR" is horizontal not on an angle.
The "Fair Trade Price" printed on the box suggests 49-51. I'll suggest 50-51.

This was a group of Senator boxes i bought on Joe's Lures site.
The bottom left is a 3/0 box at $15.00 which is correct for the first year 1942.
The top left is a 2/0 box at $15.00 which is correct for 2nd year 1946.
The top right is a 3/0 box at $17.00 which is correct for 1946.

Wow Ray, no wonder nobody else can locate those early boxes. It's cause you and Mike have 'em all Very cool to get to see them. Thanks for sharing.


........and that lefty 1/0 is a museum piece.

I recently bought a pristine chrome 1/0 spool from the 40's that came in a newell spool box and seller had no idea it was a penn. This tells me that someone hot rodded a 40's 1/0 that was in pristine condition.   ....a sad day indeed.


.....and yes, you nailed the date on that 2/0 Ray. It does have part numbers. I had it figured as 1951.

Ted,

I scored those boxes a couple of years ago and was just lucky to spot them soon after they were listed. You have to be quick .

Ray

What is the relative value of a new in the lighthouse box Penn Senator 14/0 reel with a 7 o'clock handle?

My new book is available for orders at the White Press website < http://www.whitefishpress.com/ >. This issue has a modern price guide and my opinion, guidebook value for that 1949 14/O is in there.

I do not like to quote prices in this kind of environment because I am sure I will make someone unhappy.

I do not have copies for sale at this time. Please order from the Whitefish Press.

Ted scored an as new late 1940's 6/0 . No pleading ,it is not for sale.




You'll have to wear gloves to handle this beauty.

Thanks Dom you are correct , it is definitely a 6/0 . I have edited the photo so as not to leave a mess behind. I'm living in the 9/0 twilight zone .
Funny how he finds these mint reels ....must have developed a Bloodhound like skill that allows him to SNIFF them out.

    Funny guy you are Ray. I am more like a Yorkshire terrior than a bloodhound.....and I know nothing about any 9/0. Wish I had one. I have several that look like 9/0 size, but just says "senator" and they all have goofy handles that look homemade, so who knows.

Ted, "Black Beard" You do have an uncanny knack for finding lost treasure.
As for your weird handles and no 9/0 logos, they're probably not the real thing... You should send them to me and I'll send you some authentic penn reels that have the 9/0 on the plates and genuine pen handles.😁
Nice find,
Dom

I just opened up one of the old 9/0's that came apart easily. No parts numbers on any of the parts and shallow steel main gear. The gear sleeve had been changes to SS at some time. There is only enough room in the main gear for 3 washers. No markings at all on the tail plate.

Just a couple of pictures.

Cool pics Keith!

I will buy that reel if it is for sale.  I for one, would like to see pics of the tailplate, reel stand, inside of headplate, and the bridge hole arangement.

What kind of handle came on that reel?

I don't think I would upgrade anything on this reel.  The shallow steel gear, and bronze sleeve bushing are pretty cool, and along with the gearbox location, is indicitive of a pre-1948 reel.  Are the stand bolts short?  Are they mounted in round or square holes?  Does it have a 3-piece spool?  Waffle, or hershy's kiss clicker knob.  What does the handle retaining screw look like (scalloped with or without the set screw?)?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for sharing!

Keith, put everything back in that reel and leave it alone. You got yourself a little treasure.

Cool pics Keith!

I will buy that reel if it is for sale.  I for one, would like to see pics of the tailplate, reel stand, inside of headplate, and the bridge hole arangement.

What kind of handle came on that reel?

I don't think I would upgrade anything on this reel.  The shallow steel gear, and bronze sleeve bushing are pretty cool, and along with the gearbox location, is indicitive of a pre-1948 reel.  Are the stand bolts short?  Are they mounted in round or square holes?  Does it have a 3-piece spool?  Waffle, or hershy's kiss clicker knob.  What does the handle retaining screw look like (scalloped with or without the set screw?)?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for sharing!

I will post the other pictures after I clean all the black oil and grease off the parts. It doesn't have the 3 piece spool but the one I just finished does. I'll switch the spools and check the handle. It was a normal handle with the brown knob.

It had been worked on b/c it had HT-100 washers installed and the click button was a "Hershey" style. The other reel had the waffle click button and no parts lettering.

Cool pics Keith!

I will buy that reel if it is for sale.  I for one, would like to see pics of the tailplate, reel stand, inside of headplate, and the bridge hole arangement.

What kind of handle came on that reel?

I don't think I would upgrade anything on this reel.  The shallow steel gear, and bronze sleeve bushing are pretty cool, and along with the gearbox location, is indicitive of a pre-1948 reel.  Are the stand bolts short?  Are they mounted in round or square holes?  Does it have a 3-piece spool?  Waffle, or hershy's kiss clicker knob.  What does the handle retaining screw look like (scalloped with or without the set screw?)?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for sharing!

I will post the other pictures after I clean all the black oil and grease off the parts. It doesn't have the 3 piece spool but the one I just finished does. I'll switch the spools and check the handle. It was a normal handle with the brown knob.

It had been worked on b/c it had HT-100 washers installed and the click button was a "Hershey" style. The other reel had the waffle click button and no parts lettering.

The other reel sounds like it may be an earlier model.  Pics would be great. You may have 2 treasures here.  They both should have 3-piece spools and counterbalanced reel handles w/ coin edged counterweights.  Handles are easy enough to obtain.  LMK if wither reel might be for sale.

Here are the pictures requested.

I took the 3 piece spool out of the other one that had newer side plate markings but was still a no part numbers reel and has the counterbalanced handle. I'll get that tomorrow.

They are customer reels and I'm sure he would sell some of them. There are 3 of the non bearing 9/0 reels. I have some counter balanced handles in my old handles box but they may be for the 349 and other reels.

Thanks for sharing!
That appears to definately be an early (pre 1940) headplate, and the tailplate is also period correct.  The headplate bushing has been replaced at some point, and should be a non-numbered part, as should all of the rest of the parts (including the stand, rod braces, star, jack, yoke, eccentric and lever, and lever and handle retaining screws.  This reel should have actually had a pencil knob or some other handle, but a large, non-numbered counterbalanced todpedo handle with a large coin-edged counterweight would be period correct.  Since you have 2 older 9/0s apart or in your possesion, I would try to make one complete, period correct reel with as many nonnumbered parts as are available.  Maybe check your handle pile to see if you have any nonnumbered 9/0 sized handle assemblies. 

As with most collectors, the devil is in the details.  Overall condition, period correct/completeness, as well as rarity, and historical significance are paramount. 

LMK if the owner is interested in selling this older, prewar 9/0.  You can certainly have him email me directly.


Also, I am looking for nonnumbered parts (3-piece spool, and power handle) for an early 14/0.  Lmk if you come accross anything laying around your shop there.

I did put the non numbered counter balanced handle on the reel. Along with the 3 piece spool. I'll contact him today, Saturday to see if he will sell it.

What would be a going price? Neither him or I have no idea. The external parts are rough and the internals are very good.

I went back to Hickam Harbor boatyard yesterday, and managed to buy an early 10/0 mounted to an early big game boat rod (see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.15 ).

According to the owner, this particular reel/rod combo was fishing out of Pearl Harbor just after the war ended, and has been hanging in the boathouse at the entrance to the harbor since the early 1960s.

The reel has definately seen some use, and has a rounded gear sleeve, loose bridge, damaged rod clamp, and frozen clicker pawl.  It is still spooled with linen line, and has likely caught a number of large marlin, and tuna on the smaller lightweight Hawaiian-built trolling lures popular here in the 1940s and 50s.

The reel is completely non-numbered, and has the weaker stamped reel foot, with small bolts.  The 3 piece spool, appears old and may have a drilled arbor.  The star is the thicker/early style, and the free spool lever is thicker with the coin edge.  The handle is wood, the arm is thick, and has the large coin-edged counterweight.  The logo is the newer style, and gearbox is in second gen config.

According to Mike's book the non-numbered, lever-forward 10/0 was produced in 1949/1950, but the handle, stand, bolts, clamp, and possibly the spool seem to suggest prewar production.  Any thoughts as to the production year, and value of the reel? 

I am looking forward to breaking it down and giving it a through cleaning/restoration.  I am happy to own it and will be proud to add it to my display.

A few more pics...

Mike,

It was not a reel you gave me but a NOS spool in the black box. Well tonight i found it and it is not drilled , it has a line post. It's looking more like the 1/0 and 2/0's did not have drilled spools. Found a very good early 2/0 with Penn tie on tag with line post.

Ray

Ray here are a couple of pictures of my first year 1/0, and 2/0.  Neither have drilled spool arbors.  The box is correct for a first year 3/0.  The 2/0 is in nearly mint condition.  In the background (from right to left) are my first gen config 14/0 (w/later period spool, handle, stand, clamp, braces, bridge, jack, and yoke), second gen 10/0 (likely with prewar spool and wood handle), first year (second run) or second year waffle clicker 49 with a 1941/42 handle (soon to be updated with period correct), and a second (or third year) 149 with the hex clicker.  Also a Dover Club, and Pfluger Everlaster with William's drag.  Both the 10/0 and Pflueger were local Hawaiian reels that were presumably fished hard.  

I also have a complete NOS Peerless Monofil 9MS, and a second year/late first year 109.  

Also a waffle clicker 1937 Sea Hawk, brown plate 4 post SeaFord, waffle clicker/4post/metal spool No.15, 3 post, waffle clicker Atlantic Ocean no. 14 trade reel, a 180 w/balsa covered spool, and a 185.  

Not a bad start for 4 months of collecting

I went back to Hickam Harbor boatyard yesterday, and managed to buy an early 10/0 mounted to an early big game boat rod (see http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14650.15 ).

According to the owner, this particular reel/rod combo was fishing out of Pearl Harbor just after the war ended, and has been hanging in the boathouse at the entrance to the harbor since the early 1960s.

The reel has definately seen some use, and has a rounded gear sleeve, loose bridge, damaged rod clamp, and frozen clicker pawl.  It is still spooled with linen line, and has likely caught a number of large marlin, and tuna on the smaller lightweight Hawaiian-built trolling lures popular here in the 1940s and 50s.

The reel is completely non-numbered, and has the weaker stamped reel foot, with small bolts.  The 3 piece spool, appears old and may have a drilled arbor.  The star is the thicker/early style, and the free spool lever is thicker with the coin edge.  The handle is wood, the arm is thick, and has the large coin-edged counterweight.  The logo is the newer style, and gearbox is in second gen config.

According to Mike's book the non-numbered, lever-forward 10/0 was produced in 1949/1950, but the handle, stand, bolts, clamp, and possibly the spool seem to suggest prewar production.  Any thoughts as to the production year, and value of the reel? 

I am looking forward to breaking it down and giving it a through cleaning/restoration.  I am happy to own it and will be proud to add it to my display.

John, that rig is a great find and what collecting is all about. The Pearl Harbor history is very interesting. According to your info, this reel was in use from 1946, or so, to 1960. With the kind of fishing use that is done in the Hawaiian islands, that could be five lifetimes of use for the average 10/O. Making a judgment about the reel and its true history by using its present condition and parts can be very inconclusive. No telling how many times this reel has been broken down for maintenance or what parts are original or not. The most important thing you should do is record the exact information you have about the rig. Clean the reel and bring it up to the best operating condition you can without changing original parts. You might want to restore the rod. In my opinion, you should first photograph the rod from every angle, then restore it back to the way you found it. A piece like this should be researched to death, its personal history may have surprises. This is one of those rigs that makes you wish it could talk!

Tightlines/John,

You are steaming ahead with great collectibles. The early Senator boxes with the heading on an angle are uncommon . Good score on the 3/0 first year box.

Looks like linen line on your 10/0 . It is an early 2nd gen 10/0 and may even have a drilled spool.

Ray

You won't see any green rust on these Senators but you may turn a bit green at Ted's collection of beautiful old Senators.



All except the 9/0 on the centre right and the Hot Rod 9/0 at the back left are 3 piece spool versions.



Even a couple of the Old Penn reel bags too.

Thanks for sharing Ted and congratulations on what must have been a lot of time and $'s in putting such fine examples together.

Ray

Rowdy's Penn Senator 6/0 with ID on headplate " 114-H "  .  This was when Penn stepped up the gearing and most people think of them having the maroon plates . This model with the black plates and the 114-H ID is a rare find.

Great reels there.  I seem to remember that second one there

I have been fortunate-enough to have gained a sneak peak at that pic of Ted's reels before.  Absolutely stunning reels especially considering they are basically all over 60 years old.  I like that Itty-bitty one too.  Looks like most if not all of those could easily pass for NOS or Mint at the very least. 

Thanks for sharing. 

Ted, you always amaze me, that is absolutely gorgeous. I believe the 3 piece spool Senator collection is the most sought after and the most difficult to get, I only know of one other person that has one.
Considering the shape that yours are in, it makes it close to impossible to beat.
Very nice my friend. Do I see a 16/0 as well in the bunch?
Thanks for sharing pal, you have a treasure.

Sal

[quote

      Ray, the black 114H was the first run of that new model (Mid 1963) and they can be tough to find, but not really rare. Finding one unscathed is rare, cause most these reels were put to use. The holy grail would be for a black 113H to be found, but I am positive the first 113H's were all the dark maroon color.

      Sal, there is no 16/0 in the pics Ray posted.... front is 3-12/0's, far back is a couple 10/0, then a handful of 9/0 a couple 6/0 and a 1/0.....my late 50's 16/0 jaws combo is leaning on the wall downstairs.

      Notice back left is a late 70's 9/0 with a Dom/Tom frame, and far right behind the 12/0 is a mid 70's "lefty" 9/0. If I had to pick out a favorite it would be the first year 1/0 (1942), but in actuality they're all my favorites. 

      Ray, the black 114H was the first run of that new model (Mid 1963) and they can be tough to find, but not really rare. Finding one unscathed is rare, cause most these reels were put to use. The holy grail would be for a black 113H to be found, but I am positive the first 113H's were all the dark maroon color.

      Sal, there is no 16/0 in the pics Ray posted.... front is 3-12/0's, far back is a couple 10/0, then a handful of 9/0 a couple 6/0 and a 1/0.....my late 50's 16/0 jaws combo is leaning on the wall downstairs.

      Notice back left is a late 70's 9/0 with a Dom/Tom frame, and far right behind the 12/0 is a mid 70's "lefty" 9/0. If I had to pick out a favorite it would be the first year 1/0 (1942), but in actuality they're all my favorites. 

That is my favorite of the group as well.  Though I think you have a few others behind glass that can top that gem.  Has anyone ever actually seen a 16/0 3-piece spool?  Not sure how many 16/0's were produced prior to the 1 piece becoming standard?  I would expect the 16/0 to be the first reel to be produced in second gen gearbox config.   Maybe there was actually never a full production run in first gen config? & The first Senator to sport a 1-piece spool?  Does anyone actually have access to an estimate on the total number of 16/0's produced with a 3-piece spool?

Tightlines,

John ,
   There is one known/photographed 16/0 1st gen on page 1 of this thread. I have seen some second generation 16/0's with 3 piece spools with both drilled line ties and raised posts .  There are not lots about. I think they were a $100 and around 1940 that was a lot of money . The first generation design was obsolete and the parts were used until gone because the 2nd generation design was in production before the war. The catalogs do not show the 2nd generation in the description pages but there are photos of the 2nd generation 16/0's  in some of the photos of the fishermen and their catches pre-war at the back of the catalogs. There may have only been a couple of years of 1st gen 16/0 production. There is a NOS 1948/9 16/0 in the L'House box in Mike's book.

Ted,
  Thank you for the information on the 114-H . I have only ever seen a couple advertised on Ebay for big dollars. Many are advertised as 114-H but do not have the proper ID.My education of Penn fades away after the late 50's.

Ray

Ted,
Thank you for your quick and through response!  I was thinking that there must be prewar 16/0's in the second gen build style with drilled arbor, 3-piece spools.  Likewise, it seems reasonable to deduce there were likely a few postwar reels that went out with the drilled Arbor spools (as they depleted their prewar stock).  I have put out an APB with my local sources for a 16/0 3-piece spool.  I am afraid some may have found their way into the garbage when these reels were brought in for servicing (according to the best recollection of my sources).  Yet there is still hope.  The search continues....

   John, you have obtained some sought after reels in a very short time....your eye is becoming much sharper at knowing the right things to look for. You struck gold on that 1st gen 14/0, and the handle may not be original, but looks like you found a handle that is early 2nd gen, and that's more than most could do....keep the pics coming !!


   Ray, you are encyclopedia of info and I believe you are correct for when 1st gen phased out and 2nd gen began. I'm sure there are a few 1st gen 16/0's floating around, and when one surfaces I bet John or Dom will be all over it.

   Looking at that photo of (part) of Ted's collection makes me realize it's possible to amass an unreal collection with a keen eye that can look past the bent lug, cracked handle grip, Etc. and make these reels mint again and period correct. Patience is the name of the game, and that's one of the major things to make a collector's collection stick out above the rest. You wouldn't waste your time on a labor of love like this one if you were in it for the money... This is strictly a passionate way of finding treasure that Ted is a master at. If you're looking for mint lighthouse boxed Penn Senators you either need to be independently wealthy, or have the ability and patience to put one together for yourself. Sourcing parts and boxes aren't easy, actually usually more difficult than finding the reel in many cases. Thanks for showing us what's possible in this day and age of Penn reels. Ray, thanks for posting that photo... Ted's a bit too modest sometimes.
Great stuff,
Dom
Ps- show me a first gen. 16/0 and yes, I'm all over that... But I'll have to watch out for john because he's on fire with his collecting.

There are actually 3 versions of the early 16/0 reels without part numbers. First is the 5 O'clock ( first gen. ) handle reel with the same small bridge and sleeve assy. and drags as used on the 12/0.

  The second is the 7 O'clock ( second gen. ) handle reel that again has the same bridge, sleeve, and drag assy. as the 12/0 reels. From what I can tell these were made between 1940 & 1941.

   The last was made starting in 1942 as shown in the add from The Fishing and Vacation Year Book put out by Field & Stream and Outdoor Life. This reel has the new large bridge, sleeve and drag assy. that became standard on all 12/0 and 16/0 reels.
    The first gen. reel has a drilled 3 piece spool. The 2 early second gens., with the 12/0 bridge, sleeve and drag assy. that I have, both have line on them so I can't tell if the spools are drilled or not.

I asked and I shall receive... I said I'd be all over a first gen 16/0, but I'm pretty sure these aren't on the auction block.  Is that the only 1st gen. 16/0 brought into the public eye so far?
Thanks for showing us what's out there, Brian.  You sure know how to make an introduction.  That linen line looks like rope.
Dom

Brian,

Glad to see you make your way over to this site. You are gonna Love it here

You know who!

Welcome Brian, nice to have you here.

Sal

    Thanks Sal, glad I found out you had a forum on old reels.
Yes, I know who. I'm glad you mentioned this forum.
    Dom,  that is the only 1st gen. 16/0 brought into the public eye so far. You are correct it is not on the auction block.
  I figured I should introduce myself to everyone so I put something on First Post. It is not my first post, but thought it was the best place to do it.

    Thanks Sal, glad I found out you had a forum on old reels.
Yes, I know who. I'm glad you mentioned this forum.
    Dom,  that is the only 1st gen. 16/0 brought into the public eye so far. You are correct it is not on the auction block.
  I figured I should introduce myself to everyone so I put something on First Post. It is not my first post, but thought it was the best place to do it.

Brian,
I am glad to have you onboard.  Way to come in with a *Bang*
It appears you have a wealth of knowledge on these old treasures.  We have a good group of guys here, and a number of enthusiastic Penn collectors.  Threads like this, and the enthusiasm, knowledge, and generosity of fellow members turned me onto this fine hobby.  Please stay awhile, I think you will find the atmosphere to your liking.

Hello Everyone.  I'm completely new to this forum...and forums in general!  I'm also pretty new to fishing reel repair, and collecting.  But I've come across a Senator 6/0 with a handle I've never seen before, and in all my research, there's not another forum like this one on the subject!!!  May I post a few pictures, and have your "tight knit crew of collectors" comment?    Thanks!    Dale

Welcome Dale.  Post your photos everyone is waiting.
   Brian

Thanks for the welcome, Brian!  Here goes...
I can't find a serial number anywhere, but the drive side indicates it's not first generation. I'm guessing mid-late fourties on the year of manufacture.  But the rivet on the handle knob is throwing me off.  I've never seen one like it in any pictures. I'm thinking it's one of two scenarios...1) The oiler got damaged, and somebody put a solid rivet in it's place (NICE JOB, if that's the case), or 2) It was made late in WWII, and the supply of oiler fittings was temporarily not available, so they made due with a solid, non-flush rivet.  This second scenario is not so far fetched.  I'm a luthier, and guitar collector...and I've seen MANY  guitars that came out of the war-time period (or immediate post war, when production resumed) from converted factories that used whatever they could get a hold of to turn out product.  Gibson Guitars, for example, had converted MOST of their production to making skids for gliders during WWII.  But what little guitars they DID make during that period, where not ornate models...and many came out with non-standard parts.  A real hodge podge!  Anyway....anyone seen anything like this?   Dale

Dale,
Never saw one like it. I think your first scenario is correct as a well as your guess as to age.
  Lets see what others have to say.

I agree with Brian... it's possible the handle was loosening or too tight, so they popped the oil port bearing and riveted it to get it back on track. Ted, just brought the fact that the oil port bearing gets installed after the handle is riveted on to my attention.  I should've known that but i never really thought about it.
Welcome Dilly!
Dom

I agree with the above, but am not quite sure how the oiler can be 'popped' off of the handle easily.  Seems like the handle grasp would need to be pressed off of the outter bushing, then the oiler could be punched out from the inside?  I wonder if the oiler had been damaged, and a new one was just partially pressed in from the outside.  I am considering pressing a new oiler into my prewar Silver Beach handle.



Your handle may have had similar damage at one point?

Interesting, Tightlines...Though, I've never seen a Penn schematic that shows the oiler fitting as a user serviceable part. Nor have I seen one on anybody's parts list.  Would you just employ your removal theory, and cannibalize one from another handle? I'm very curious to see how that works for you, should you decide on that route. 

My other theory might still one day be proven viable...IF somebody comes across some other Penn handles so adorned from that period.  It looks like the same rivet that I've seen on SOME of the early "pear shaped" handle knobs.  So it stands to reason that if there was a shortage of oiler fittings once full production of reels resumed, that somebody might have made the decision to grab a box of those out of some corner, press them in, and get the reels out the door!  These little glimpses of small-time history really fascinate me.

Other than curiosity, it really makes no difference to me. I don't plan on changing it, and I'll be fishing with this reel, rather than making a museum piece out of it anyway. This reel has a nice feel to it, and I've always had a

[Penn Chronology]

Hey Ray, remember about ten years ago when we were keeping the difference between first and second generation Senators a secret so we could buy up any we found without competition? I guess the cat is out of the bag now!!

[Superhook]

I can remember lots of time spent searching everyday.  It was not common knowledge but there were a few out there that could pick them . I can recall that we found a 10/0 and a 14/0 in the one day , not seeing either before . You got the 14/0 and i got the 10/0 . That was a unbelievable day . ( Sorry Dominick)

The 16/0 never showed for us. At least Brian proved they did exist.

[Penn Chronology]

I can remember lots of time spent searching everyday.  It was not common knowledge but there were a few out there that could pick them . I can recall that we found a 10/0 and a 14/0 in the one day , not seeing either before . You got the 14/0 and i got the 10/0 . That was a unbelievable day . ( Sorry Dominick)

The 16/0 never showed for us. At least Brian proved they did exist.

Yea, we have had some good finds, EBay was a bit better back then. Not everyone was so savvy. That 14/0 you remember me buying was not a first gen reel. My first gen 14/0 comes from Big Ed, it was a private deal at a show. I remember showing it to Mike Popowich after I bought it and him thinking I was crazy for pay $250 for that old dirty First gen 14/0. I had to explain to him the difference between a  First and second gen 14/0. Even Mike Popowich did not the difference between a first and second gen Senator back then.

That 16/0 first gen reel is super rare. All these years looking and only one found by Brian. I positively know that more than one exists. I can document two others besides Brian's. The problem is, I know about eight or ten collectors actively looking for that first gen 16/0 reel, if one comes up for auction, it will go nuts!!

[coastal_dan]

There is literally years worth of research in this single post...I'm flabbergasted.  Thanks Sid for putting it all together in one place and all contributors who created it.   Wow...

[sdlehr]