BX 400N (Jigging Special) Squeaking and Stuttering Drag

[mahfudzmn]

I'm hoping you guys could help me with this issue.

Friend of mine passed me his brand new (used 5 days) reel to open up his reel clamp post which was no big deal. Since I've always wanted an Accurate I went on to test and measure the drag as well. To my suprise I was just testing 5.5 kg @ Strike and it squeaked like spent brakes of a car, some stuttering was also detected! I opened it up and saw some water (saltwater), the drag washers and plates appear well greased.

I cleaned the washers anyway, and regreased them. Well at 5.5 kg @ Strike the drag is now quiet and silky smooth. When I pressed on to Full which I measured 8.0 kg, the squeaking came back and stutters after about 3 ft of line has been pulled.

Any of you guys encountered this problem before? I'm thinking that the drag plate surface is actually rather small, which I know wouldn't really affect drag force but could this be the problem for the noise and stuttering? I do have the clone of the Accurate which is the Poseidon 200R but that reel has a flat drag plate and the drag performs pretty well.


The reel in question



View from handle sideplate



Saltwater in the drag. Also visible on the drag washer is the working/effective area of the drag plate on the washer



Drag plate is smaller than drag washer but that's not so surprising



This is what surprised me, I was expecting a flat drag plate. Rather the plate area is just the ones you can see my light ring reflected on. There onwards to the center of the plate concave inwards hence doesn't touch the drag washer.

[johndtuttle]

The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.

Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.

Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.

A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.

[Robert Janssen]

Well, this is kind of interesting.... it looks like the drag plate is anodized aluminum.

I was, for many years, very interested in friction materials and have tested many types in many ways. And, as an extension of that, also considered several types of opposing surface. And among them, anodized aluminum.

Now i don't recall the details this many years later, but i do recall that it tended to shudder and stutter.

Now, if Accurate has thought or done differently, okay... good for them. Or?

.

[mahfudzmn]

The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.

Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.

Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.

A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.

I second that since I've seen many Shimano Baitcasters using this bike wheel concept with large washers and large inner hole making the distance furthest from the center to achieve higher drag. I was a bit intrigued with this Accurate design that they didn't make the drag plate as large as the washer. Second, while making the plate this way seems a good way to achieve higher drag, could the reduced surface area sacrificed the smoothness and noise? I'm thinking something along the line like the force is the same but with higher pressure on the reduced effective surface is asking too much from the carbontex?

That 5.5/8.0 kg Strike/Full is what I randomly landed on when I was testing it, turns out this setting was about a half turn loose of the cam before last Free spool point. So it could easily get more than what I tested.

Well, this is kind of interesting.... it looks like the drag plate is anodized aluminum.

I was, for many years, very interested in friction materials and have tested many types in many ways. And, as an extension of that, also considered several types of opposing surface. And among them, anodized aluminum.

Now i don't recall the details this many years later, but i do recall that it tended to shudder and stutter.

Now, if Accurate has thought or done differently, okay... good for them. Or?

.

Now that you've mentioned it, I recall that some of the reels I worked on like the Ryoga, Tatula, Calcutta and some Revo do have aluminum plates on top of the stack (the others stainless steel) but usually washers in good condition don't stutter on me with these reels. Thing is it not only stutter but sounds like brakes on a car too 

[day0ne]

Did you clean up both drags?

[mahfudzmn]

Did you clean up both drags?

I have cleaned both drag washers and plates. When I greased them I did just as I've done for the reels I've serviced. When this one still came back squeaky, I wanted to ask if anyone is experiencing the same issue

[hafnor]

The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.

Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.

Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.

A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.

I never though of this before John - Thank you for explaining. I guess it makes a lot of sense... I just bought sheets of cf to increase the drag surface in my reel. I can get approx 20% extra contact surface by cutting a smaller inner diameter than the stock washers.... I though that this made the reel produce higher drag with less strain on bearings... I guess it wont help one bit!?

[johndtuttle]

The inner surface of the drag plate has almost zero contribution to braking force.

Somewhere around here there is an old post where we discuss this as the diameter of the disk is everything and the inner surface area almost nothing...the analogy was to brakes on a bike where the tiny calipers acting on the rim of a wheel have great force due to the large distance from the center, whereas old drum brakes in the hub can barely stop the bike.

Anyways, Accurate does that to lighten the reel and is one more step they take that others don't to improve their reel.

A 400 sized reel is quite small (ie the drag plate diameter is not going to be large) so I think 8kg max is about right and certainly no one's pinion bearing is going to survive much more than that (other than a Penn Torque/Fathom). Dual drag reels make more but for that size reel you have about what it is able to do.

I never though of this before John - Thank you for explaining. I guess it makes a lot of sense... I just bought sheets of cf to increase the drag surface in my reel. I can get approx 20% extra contact surface by cutting a smaller inner diameter than the stock washers.... I though that this made the reel produce higher drag with less strain on bearings... I guess it wont help one bit!?

Sorry, but the increase in braking force should be completely negligible.

When calculating braking force for a drag disc it is proportional to the distance from the rotational center to the outer edge due to "braking torque". The further the distance from the rotational center the greater the contribution of the surface.

If you could make your disc wider then the gain would be very significant, or, if you added a second disc (like an Avet Raptor). But filling in the inner volume has little effect. The torque of the spool height easily overwhelms drag effects near the rotational center. Its a "leverage" principle like any other lever arm.

The caliper of a bike brake analogy is the easiest to grasp. The tiny surface acting on the rim of the wheel far from the rotational center has great effect. Move the same caliper closer and closer to the rotational center and it's ability to brake is greatly diminished.

Ideally, you would simply fish a Penn Torque instead and save your bearings with a thrust bearing rather than fish a Jigging Master.

[hafnor]

I see. Just never thought of this! Too bad though, as the sheets are already bought. I guess I can find some other old reels to replace some teflon/felt/dartanium washers.

Now your suggestion about changing out my JM´s in favor of Penn I am more doubtful  I love them. Although a thrust bearing would be a very good option on these reels.

Anyways always nice to here your inputs John - Greatly appreciated and always qualified!

[hafnor]

Did you clean up both drags?

I have cleaned both drag washers and plates. When I greased them I did just as I've done for the reels I've serviced. When this one still came back squeaky, I wanted to ask if anyone is experiencing the same issue

Have you inspected the drag plate connection to the pinion shaft? It will not explain the squeaking but it might explain the uneven "jerky" feeling. If there is a slight missalignement there it could be the reason. See if the C-ring is properly attached on the left side (guess it is your right side as you have a lefty).

If it doesn´t work, you should send it to accurate. One of the perks with accurate alongside there magnificent reels is they're outstanding customer service!

[mahfudzmn]

Hafnor,

I second what John explained about there'll be little use in changing the CF sheet. The only thing that it'll come to use is when your drag washers have thinned down that the 'clamping' gets loose because of the decrease in thickness of the drag stack.

I still think after so much thinking about this 700 dollars reel, that they have decreased the drag surface so much that is causing the problem. A lot of reels I see especially lever drag and heavy drag reels don't have this kind of design with their drag plate. Like I said earlier, it is asking bit too much from the carbontex by making the braking area so small. After I cleaned and regreased it, it went silent at the earlier tested 5.5 kg, but when I pushed it higher at about 8kg, the sound and stuttering came back...I'm very inclined to think this is a design issue

Also, what John said about taking the braking torque to the outermost diameter is right, provided that the drag plate could actually transfer the clamping or pinning down force effectively. Some cheaper baitcasters tried to do this but failed miserably due to the drag plate flexing and acting like a spring instead of transfering the force.

[hafnor]

Is the sound appearing when you reel with the handle? or when drag is being pulled?

I find it strange that the drag plate design does not cover more of the washer...

[mahfudzmn]

Is the sound appearing when you reel with the handle? or when drag is being pulled?

I find it strange that the drag plate design does not cover more of the washer...

The squeak and stutter is when the drag is being pulled sir. Well I'm surprised when I saw the drag plate too

[Robert Janssen]

I still think it is really strange to run the drag directly on aluminum. Almost as if someone forgot to install the usual titanium disc.

.

[Tiddlerbasher]

Unless it is actually titanium and not aluminium. The process of anodising titanium hardens the surface - it should make an excellent drag component. Is the drag assembly, at the other end of the spool, the same. With Accurate Twin Drags the drag plate at either end should be the same.