Drag Fade

[FatTuna]

Personally, I'd go star drag. The lever drag will definitely have a smooth drag with better heat dissipation but the star drag is easier to clean. I've cleaned sand out of internationals before and it's a major pain.

[Alto Mare]

These numbers are for testing only.
Pulling on a reel while the line was tight on a post, I was able to get it to 54lbs. at max.
This was with the newest 113HX gears.
Pulling on that same reel with the standard gears, while having the star as tight  as possible,
I was only able to get to 27 lbs. and that's about right.
Now, here is where it got me.
If the reel was set at 27 lbs for both tests, why was it so much easier to pull on the reel with the 113HX gears?
This is why increasing drag numbers capacity helps.

Sal

Ho, I forgot to mention that the reel tested had a Delrin washer under the gear.
I personally believe the Delrin washer helps with heat dissipation.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

IMO Studio Ocean Mark uses aluminum drag plates because, of all the metals that i know of, it dissipates heat the fastest...

[Keta]

IMO Studio Ocean Mark uses aluminum drag plates because, of all the metals that i know of, it dissipates heat the fastest...

Gold is a better conductet but not cost effective, and heavy.

[Bryan Young]

Here is a list of radiation heat transfer emissivity coefficient of some common materials.  I presume that the lower the number the better...but I'm not absolutely sure as thermal dynamics is not my best suit.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html

[rippin_lips]

Here is a list of radiation heat transfer emissivity coefficient of some common materials.  I presume that the lower the number the better...but I'm not absolutely sure as thermal dynamics is not my best suit.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/emissivity-coefficients-d_447.html

Emissivity is for radiation. I believe in a fishing reel, the conductive heat transfer coefficient (thermal conductivity, denoted by a k) and the convective heat transfer (Hc) with air is what is most important. For conduction, the heat transfer is dependent on thermal conductivity (k), the area, the thickness, and finally the temperature difference. Basically its the same for convection minus the thickness.  There are convective heat transfer coefficients, the area, and again the temperature difference.

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

Gold is a better conductet but not cost effective, and heavy.

conductor and/or heat shield better but to dissipate heat better than aluminum i doubt it

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/thermalP/Lesson-1/Rates-of-Heat-Transfer

has nothing to do with fishing but since we are discussing drag fade in relation to heat and metals

here is an ex. of gold being used as a heat shield McLaren F1 car;
https://www.google.com/search?q=gold+heat+heat+shield+mclaren+f1&biw=1366&bih=676&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsgc-Pm7rQAhWrhlQKHYGtBHwQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1

other apps; electronics space bling bling etc 

btw i'm not a scientist i'm just a googler...

[Rivverrat]

Personally, I'd go star drag. The lever drag will definitely have a smooth drag with better heat dissipation but the star drag is easier to clean. I've cleaned sand out of internationals before and it's a major pain.

You know, thats the whole reason I was considering an upgraded senator. While I'm in Kansas my favorite river is mostly sand banks & bottom. So I'm framiliar with how easily it gets into everything & every where....Jeff

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

The lever drag will definitely have a smooth drag with better heat dissipation

here's an experiment that Sal did a while back but so while back

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=6517.135 page 10 scroll down

i really can't compare the LD's temp but as the experiment results shows it lowered the temp. Ok it is not very scientific but until somebody with a testing lab does it i tend to believe the results and also this has been applied to automobiles to reduce heat and fade during braking.

tight lines!

[Rivverrat]

Now, here is where it got me.
If the reel was set at 27 lbs for both tests, why was it so much easier to pull on the reel with the 113HX gears?
This is why increasing drag numbers capacity helps.

Sal

Sal, one possibilty is what I see & hear clients say after they stroke the double action of their revolver when they come to pick it up it & exclaim "MAN THATS LIGHT". When in fact it may be only a 1/2 lb. lighter. What your feeling could be the smoothness that comes from spreading out the load ....Jeff  

[rippin_lips]

Now, here is where it got me.
If the reel was set at 27 lbs for both tests, why was it so much easier to pull on the reel with the 113HX gears?
This is why increasing drag numbers capacity helps.

Sal

Sal, one possibilty is what I see & hear clients say after they stroke the double action of their revolver when they come to pick it up it & exclaim "MAN THATS LIGHT". When in fact it may be only a 1/2 lb. lighter. What your feeling could be the smoothness that comes from spreading out the load ....Jeff  

There are two types of friction, kinetic and static.  Static friction is the frictional force to overcome that is keeping the object from moving.  Kinetic friction is the frictional force resisting the motion of the object while in motion.  Static friction will always be higher than the kinetic friction for the same object moving against the same surface, meaning it will take more force to start an object in motion than it would to keep it in motion.  Greasing the drag washers helps smooth out the static to kinetic transition and provides a more even force instead of the jerky drags we talk about.  Most likely this was what caused the different feeling, a smoother static to kinetic transition.

[jurelometer]

1.  All things being equal,  a material that is a better thermal conductor of heat will dissipate heat better.

I checked a couple different web sources and here is what I found for the thermal conductivity of some materials (in metric W/(m K) at 25 degrees Celsius) - higher is better for conducting heat.

Aluminum:      209
Brass:             109
acetal/ delrin:   .023 - .03
Stainless steel:  16
Carbon fiber in epoxy with fibers:  5-7  ( probably not the same as the phenolic resin used in drag washers- but this was all I could find)
Carbon fiber in epoxy across fibers: .5-.8
Air:                   .024
Salmon (?):         .5

I couldn't find the  thermal conductivity of Cal's grease- but since it is more a less a liquid with some stuff suspended, my guess is that the conductivity would be in line with liquids - which are all low.

So if the goal was solely to dissipate heat,  stainless, delrin, grease are all not good choices compared to the OEM materials (sorry, this is the science). Of course without some of these materials, the reel would not be strong/smooth enough to support high drag settings for even a short run. 

If I was building out a senator for long runs at high drag, I am not sure that I would want delrin on the top of the stack.  It will act as an insulator at the location where the heat needs to travel, and also has a relatively low max operating temp (180F).

2.  If clean/ dry carbon fades, it is because a layer of gas (offgassing from the material due to heat)  temporarily changes the coefficient of friction.   At least this what I could find regarding carbon brake fade in automobiles.  It seems unlikely that a reel drag would get hot enough for this to happen.  Unless the phenolic resin used in reel drags is "gassier" at lower temps than Carbon brake pads /discs in race cars. Curious to see what Alan's results will be here.

3.   A smoother drag system is less likely to break lines, damage parts, etc.   but the heat " generated" is a function of force and time from the fish end of the system.  A  smoother drag won't run cooler unless the smoothness causes the fish to decrease the length of time it runs with force above the drag setting.  It is not the same situation as a motor with a smoother  bearing running cooler.

-J

[Bryan Young]

Looks like I may need to change up my drag kits to a hard brass material for heat dissipation, but I'm not sure if it will be as strong.

[Ron Jones]

Looks like I may need to change up my drag kits to a hard brass material for heat dissipation, but I'm not sure if it will be as strong.

Lets not put the cart before the horse! Your kits work, well, in real world environments. Everyone changed there disks to stainless for many reasons. I think you should just keep doing what you are doing.
Ron

[Alto Mare]

I agree!
I've fished Bri-Bri's kits, the man has a good thing going.
At times what you'll get on paper isn't the same when out on the real world.