A/R dog post repair for Saltist 40HA

[mhc]

There have been a couple of failures of the Saltist A/R dog post reported over the years. Alan T showed one that had sheared off of the frame a few years ago, http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=227.0 and I have had this one from around the same time, that didn't shear off but pulled a piece of the frame out with it. It was 2nd hand so I don't know what caused it to fail.



I thought the best way to repair it would be to spread the load by clamping the area surrounding the hole between a flat nut and bolt with as much area that would fit. I came up with a stainless 5/16" cup head bolt.





The hole in the frame needed to be cleaned up with a needle file to fit the bolt.



Both the bolt head and nut were too high and needed to be modified for clearance. The bolt head was gound down on a bench grinder then sanded. The nut needed to be 2.5 mm thick to match the height of the dog support on the original post. I hacksawed the nut in half and ground / belt sanded it to thickness.



There is a 0.5 mm step in the thickness of the frame that runs across where the post is. I shaped a 0.5mm SS shim to fill in the gap under the nut so the load is spread around the circumference. ( I missed a few photos along the way) The next step was to file the bolt to fit the hole in the dog. I started by filing the threads off to make it easier to start in the drill press.



The shoulder the dog will rest on needed to be 4.5 mm from the head to match the original post. The filed bolt with flattened head, the 2.5 mm nut and the 0.5 mm shim,



A dry fit and all looks good



This is where I thought I would be clever and put a spring on top of the dog, held in place by a washer under a C clip;





Then I came unstuck - I was checking the clearance below and around but not above - the main gear sits over the dog post. I'm glad I didn't finish shaping the spring  



OK, back to plan A - replace the post,



I cleaned the paint from the frame around the hole, with a dremel wire brush and cleaned all parts with carb and brake cleaner before final assembly with loctite 660







I'll let it sit for a day or so before testing the dog without the A/R roller clutch.

Mike

[swill88]

Mike, just WOW.

Can't wait to see the test.

Thanks.

Steve

[Bryan Young]

Whoa Mike, very impressive and a ton of patience.

[Keta]

Nice work!    


I do not know where you get your nuts and bolts but half nuts, I know down to 1/4", are available.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#half-height-nuts/=17707ar

[Cor]

Well done.   I love this kind of ingenuity, make a plan and with limited tools get it fixed
Looks like it will outlast the rest of the reel now!

"I'll let it sit for a day or so before testing the dog without the A/R roller clutch.

Mike"

While you're about it also test the AR Bearing without the dog?

[Alto Mare]

Nice repair work, I didn't think there would be that much force there to cause that type of damage. Must be cast aluminum plate, looks like it will definitely happen again on others.

Sal

[Rothmar2]

Mike, you need a lathe 
Excellent work!

[mhc]

Nice work!    


I do not know where you get your nuts and bolts but half nuts, I know down to 1/4", are available.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#half-height-nuts/=17707ar

Thanks Lee, I didn't see any thin nuts over here when I was looking. I had a look at your link - mcmasters have got a pretty good range by the look of it. I didn't think they shipped international orders although Sal recently mentioned they do. I seem to remember back when Sal first started using delrin washers I tried to get some delrin sheet from them and couldn't  I'll give it another try next time I need something I cant get locally.
Mike

[mhc]

Thanks guys, I'll give it a test tomorrow and hope it doesn't make an even bigger hole than the first failure.  

While you're about it also test the AR Bearing without the dog?

I'd like to Cor but Daiwa parts are to hard to find in Aus - I wouldn't like to ruin a good AR bearing. I've read the shimano trinidad A/R bearings fit saltists & bought a few 'trinidad A'  A/R bearings on ebay. Turned out the early trinidad bearings fit but the newer trinidad A bearings don't.

I didn't think there would be that much force there to cause that type of damage. Must be cast aluminum plate, looks like it will definitely happen again on others.

Sal

The stock post/frame must be weak Sal, I don't know how much drag those washers generate but the larger diameter A/R sprocket would reduce the actual load on the dog  

Mike, you need a lathe  

Yeah - I'm tempted.

Mike

[Cor]

While you're about it also test the AR Bearing without the dog?

I'd like to Cor but Daiwa parts are to hard to find in Aus - I wouldn't like to ruin a good AR bearing. I've read the shimano trinidad A/R bearings fit saltists & bought a few 'trinidad A'  A/R bearings on ebay. Turned out the early trinidad bearings fit but the newer trinidad A bearings don't.


Mike
[/quote]

Recently tested a Shimano ARB and was surprised, it only gave at about 22 lb if I remember correctly.

[mhc]

That's good to know Cor. Mr Tani has said AR bearings are good for around 20lbs, which ties in well with your tested 22 lbs.
Makes me wonder how much force to use testing the dog post. If the purpose of the back-up dog is to take over when a functional roller clutch fails then it should be stronger, say 25 - 30 lbs? Or should the bearing still be counted on to provide some resistance in tandem with the dog? The few failed bearings I have seen still provide some resistance, they just slip before the original 20 odd lbs.
In reality 20 lbs is more than I will use but it would be nice to know the dog post will hold a bit more - without testing to failure!

Mike

[Alto Mare]

Nice work!    


I do not know where you get your nuts and bolts but half nuts, I know down to 1/4", are available.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#half-height-nuts/=17707ar

Thanks Lee, I didn't see any thin nuts over here when I was looking. I had a look at your link - mcmasters have got a pretty good range by the look of it. I didn't think they shipped international orders although Sal recently mentioned they do. I seem to remember back when Sal first started using delrin washers I tried to get some delrin sheet from them and couldn't  I'll give it another try next time I need something I cant get locally.
Mike

You might be correct Mike, I've been sending screws to a very good friend on your side of the pond up to 2 years ago, he mentioned McMaster-Carr didn't ship there.
Maybe things change along the way, especially after we make them famous here .
I found this and they do mention they ship internationally:
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=4237623

[mhc]

Hi Sal, I didn't mean to put you on the spot about the shipping - I was just thinking mcmaster-carr might have changed their shipping policy, it's been a while since I tried. It's not really a problem with hardware stuff, we can usually find what we need if we know what to ask for. 
Mike

[Cor]

That's good to know Cor. Mr Tani has said AR bearings are good for around 20lbs, which ties in well with your tested 22 lbs.
Makes me wonder how much force to use testing the dog post. If the purpose of the back-up dog is to take over when a functional roller clutch fails then it should be stronger, say 25 - 30 lbs? Or should the bearing still be counted on to provide some resistance in tandem with the dog? The few failed bearings I have seen still provide some resistance, they just slip before the original 20 odd lbs.
In reality 20 lbs is more than I will use but it would be nice to know the dog post will hold a bit more - without testing to failure!

Mike

A dog post failure I had never heard of until now!   I never even considered it a possibility, but you are never to old to learn.    So I would not worry too much about it. 
Perhaps some others can indicate if they have come across it more often.

[mhc]

I tested the dog post today using Jurelometer's thread to calculate the load. http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0
Working with 1.8" dia spool, 6.4:1 gear ratio and 30 lbs drag I got 173 lb/in torque. Using a crescent wrench with 7" from the shaft to the hole in the wrench handle I needed around 24 lbs force on the wrench.
The A/R bearing was taken out so the dog took all the load.

At 15 lbs;



After reaching 24.5 lbs the dog, post and ratchet were checked and it was all good;





Looks like the post works - I'll try putting a spring on the dog at some stage.

Mike