Issues modifying a 113H

[Backfisher]

Hi All,

After finding this board and the wealth of information it contains, I decided to take on the challenge of servicing my own reels.  Feeling pretty confident after some successful cleaning, greasing and drag washer replacement, I think I may have bit off a bit more than i can chew.

It all started with an old and well fished 113H that my brother have me.  There was some slop in the handle where the gear sleeve had rounded off a bit, so I figured that I would try my hand at replacing that.  Well, between this site and Mysticparts.com I think I "got the bug."  I thought that as long as I am replacing the gear sleeve, I might as well upgrade to Alan's SS model, and I might as well add the under gear washer kit too. I rationalize that if I do that, I simply have to add in Bryan's 7+1 Ultimate drag upgrade.  However, to support this massive new amount of drag my reel will have, the Pro Challenger double dog SS bridge plate is an absolute necessity.  Fortunately I convinced myself that I could wait for the SS gear set, yoke and eccentric jack.

All the parts come in, and I excitedly strip the reel down, clean and lube all the parts, and put the reel back together with all its glorious upgrades.  Marveling at what I have accomplished, I pick up the reel to test out my handiwork and...  the handle barely turns.  

Talk about ego deflation.

I fiddle with the drag, the clutch,  the spool, but nothing helps. Thinking something did not go together properly in the reassembly, I disassemble the reel and put it back together. It still does not work.  I do it again and get the same result.  So I start going piece by piece, leaving one part out of the rebuild at a time to see if I can find out what my problem is.

As it turns out, I am not able to use the two washer under drag washer kit in this setup.  It appears as though there is not enough space, and the original brass main gear is rubbing on the inside of plastic side plate (I think). When I replaced the two washers with the single carbontex washer that came with the ultimate upgrade drag kit, the gear would turn smoothly.

So my first question to the group is has anyone else done this series of modifications on a 113H, and if so did you have any issues?  Am i doing something wrong in the assembly that I am missing?

My second issue here is that I am only able to get a small amount of drag out of the reel.  I have to spin the star about half way down its threads before I get any drag pressure at all, and by the time it bottoms out on the side plate, there is only about 15 lbs of drag. I tried flipping the tension spring and that only made it worse. So my second question is could I replace the top keyed washer from Bryan's kit with one of the original thicker washers to make the drag engage sooner?

Or would replacing the original brass gear with a SS set fix all my problems?

Thanks in advance,
Richard

"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

[handi2]

Richard you figured it out already. There wasn't enough room for the under gear metal washer and Carbontex washer. How thick was the Carbontex washer for under the gear? It should be around 0.5mm.

It was rubbing at first and now its not high enough.

After the last keyed metal washer on top of the main gear you will need to add another metal washer just like it. This will get the chromed sleeve up higher so the drag star doesn't bottom out on the reel.

If this is too high. You have to remove some of the material inside the reel so the main gear doesn't rub.

Another idea is to get another SS gear sleeve that isn't ground flat all the way down. Get one that looks like the stock gear sleeve. This will eliminate all the problems.

Keith

[Maxed Out]

  Bryan will know the answers to these questions

 Ted

[Bryan Young]

Welcome Richard and I'm sorry you are having issues.

Let's start with the gear sleeve. Would you please take a photograph of the gear sleeve working upwards to the gear to the drag kit. I discovered that I had an error in my instructions. So I would like to start with my drag kit after that.

The instructions States carbontex the keyed washer then carbontex the keyed washer. It should be a thick carbontex the keyed the thick carbontex then eared, carbontex the keyed,...


It's possible that you only have partial drag with my bad instructions.

With the double dog bridge plate. Which gear sleeve did you go with?  Alan Tani's or Pro Challenger?   If ProChallenger, you cannot use the under gear washer kit. It will not work.

Lastly I think the rubbing is due to the drag washer or spring washer in the drag stack not sitting well. That is why I think pictures are needed so we can give you an idea where the problems may be.

Bryan

[Backfisher]

Thank for the replies Keith and Bryan.

Bryan,  I am not quite sure what you're asking for in a photo, so hopefully this one is correct.  It is an exploded view of how I put the drag together.

I thought there might be a misprint in your instructions since they called for 5 keyed washers and two eared washers. I assembled the stack with alternating keyed and eared washers like the way the original set was put in. The carbontex washers went in with the two thick ones first (gear, thick carbontex-keyed-thick carbontex-eared-thin carbontex...).  Is this the correct assembly order?  The sleeve is Alan's second generation model, which is why I attempted to add the metal and carbontex washers between the gear and the sleeve. Also, I am pretty sure that it is not the drag washers, as in one of my trials, I assembled the reel with only half the drag washers ( no particular reason for taking out half, I gust shook the gear to get some of the washers out) the main gear still would not move.

Keith, the washers under the main gear are 0.71 mm for the carbontex and 0.52 for the thin metal washer.  The one that is in there now (from Bryans kit) is 0.74 mm. Is this 1.23 mm spacing simply too much for the gear to fit?

As far as adding a washer to the top of the drag stack, would you recommend two 0.52 mm washers or one 1.03 mm washer (the original size)?

Thanks,
Richard

[Bryan Young]

Hi Richard,

Would you please take a close up photo of the gear sleeve. Red arrow.

Regarding lack of  drag range, it appears hat the last eared washer was not seated in the main gear evidenced by the ears looking bent.

You may need to rearrange the carbontex washer so that the eared washer sits fluch in the main gear.   The last carvontex washer would need to be a thicker one.

Hope this helps.

Bryan

[Backfisher]

Thanks for the observations Bryan, I did not notice that the eared washer was bent, I will try your suggestion with the thick carbontex washer. Here is the photo of the gear sleeve.

Cheers,
Richard

[handi2]

Use the thin Carbontex washer on top of the thin metal washer for under the gear.

Ive always had to file the ears on the eared washers just a bit so they go on easy one can move up and down.

After the last Carbontex washer you can use any thickness keyed washer that fits the best. If the main gear doesn't rub anymore try to get the height just right so when the star goes on there is a little bit of drag with it backed up against the handle. I dont use anything under the handle or between the handle and drag star.

You can do this without the bridge and gears in the reel. With the bridge and gears together put the tension washer on top and then the chromed sleeve followed by the drag star. Now you can see how for the star tightens. If there is more threads showing on the gear sleeve than normal add another keyed washer then the tension washer and try again.

When putting it all back in the reel leave the chromed sleeve on and capture it with an O ring so it all stays in place. (Thanks Sal)

Keith

[Bryan Young]

The under gear washer sounds correct. Are you able to confirm whether the gear is touching the sideplates?

[Backfisher]

Bryan,

I just checked, and it appears to me that the modifications do not fit in my reel.  I put the reel together  with only the bridge plate, sleeve and main gear, leaving out the pinion gear, yoke, springs and all the drag washers.  When I put the metal and carbontex washer in, the gear would not turn.  When I put i the under gear washer from your kit in, it spines freely.  So I measured the height of the gear/washer/gear sleeve/assembly (mounted on the bridge plate) and it is 0.667 inches with the metal/carbontex combination while it is 0.648 inches with the washer from your kit installed.  the depth of the recess for the gear (to the deepest "ledge") is 0.658 inches. Based on the measurements, in looks as though the assembly with the two washers is 0.01 inches too tall.  There is a slight gap between the base of the gear sleeve and the bridge plate, but it appears to be less than 0.01 inches (i do not have any feeler gauges to determine the exact gap).  I measured the anti-reverse gear (or is that piece called a ratchet?) and it is 0.112 inches tall,  is that how tall it is supposed to be?  Is it possible that there is just a bit too much plastic in the side plate when it came from the factory so many years ago?

[Backfisher]

...You can do this without the bridge and gears in the reel. With the bridge and gears together put the tension washer on top and then the chromed sleeve followed by the drag star. Now you can see how for the star tightens. If there is more threads showing on the gear sleeve than normal add another keyed washer then the tension washer and try again.

When putting it all back in the reel leave the chromed sleeve on and capture it with an O ring so it all stays in place. (Thanks Sal)

Keith

Thanks for this tip, this will be a lot easier that taking the reel apart a bunch to times in order to get this thing set up.

[Bryan Young]

Richard,

Please PM me your address. I'll send out a couple of 0.5 mm (0.020") Carbontex drag washers for your under gear washers. Please make sure that the gear is smooth. If there are any bumps of corrosion in the main gear it will tear up the drag washer. That is why I'll send you a couple just in case.

Bryan