Shimming Spinning Reels

[exp2000]

I am interested in learning more about fine tuning spinning reels - in this case, shimming the main-gear.

So I devised a setup to measure the clearance between the pinion and the main-gear on a Stella 10,000 SW.

The clearance with all shims removed measures 0.71mm.

The actual shim stack measured 0.64mm. giving a shimmed clearance of 0.07mm.

With this shim stack installed there is negligible backlash at the handle suggesting that this is the optimal stack size.

Has anyone else experimented with this or have any pertinent suggestions?
~

[philaroman]

can't help, but really glad you started this discussion - THANK YOU!!!
despite some comfort w/ persnickety spinners w/ way too many parts, I just loathe playing w/ shims & I'm horrible at it...  the more I can learn by reading, as opposed to trial & error, the better
THANK YOU, AGAIN!!!

[ReelClean]

Now you're getting a bit bloody scientific Brett, but you have made me ask the question "where did I put my dial indicator?"
Has it had any effect on the pinion mesh and oscillation feel?

[exp2000]

Now you're getting a bit bloody scientific Brett, but you have made me ask the question "where did I put my dial indicator?"
Has it had any effect on the pinion mesh and oscillation feel?

Lol!

This kinda thing is a well established science when it comes to automotive differentials.

I just wonder how reel manufacturers determine correct tolerances in spinning reels.

I tried removing a 0.05mm (0.002") shim but this resulted in a noticeable increase in handle backlash.

The standard shim stack resulted in a calculated clearance of 0.07mm (0.00276") so I reckon that 2-3 thou is probably acceptable clearance parameters in this case.

Just replying to this thread helps me to evaluate tests I have done so far.

Maybe if I screw around enough, I will get some idea of how things work in the reel world?
~

[Tiddlerbasher]

I've shimmed a few spinners, mainly Okuma. I did it through trial and error - I have a dial gauge but never thought to use it Doh!
From memory most of the shims were approx. .25-.5mm - I used to punch them from teflon - because I had a couple of sheets.
Only one reel caused problems. It was shimmed in the UK in winter. Then it was taken to Thailand (their summer) I could barely turn the handle! I had over-shimmed it. I removed the shim and it was fine.
I'll try measuring the actual play next time with my dial gauge.

[Rivverrat]

just wonder how reel manufacturers determine correct tolerances in spinning reels.

The answer is they dont. At least not to the level your striving for.
Sure you know this but what doing will greatly increase the life on the gears. While also giving a better feel to the reel.
Most likely more so on mid level reels than the higher end ones... Jeff

Edited by Sid Lehr: was only missing a "["

[Rivverrat]

Dont know what happened with that post.

Edit by Sid Lehr: I fixed it. Was missing a [

[exp2000]

The answer is they dont. At least not to the level your striving for.
Sure you know this but what doing will greatly increase the life on the gears. While also giving a better feel to the reel.
Most likely more so on mid level reels than the higher end ones... Jeff

I just tested a second ST10000SW which is factory original (true story) and it's clearance was 0.08mm = 0.003".
I will also service this one in due course.

The inclusion of a 0.002" shim suggests that manufacturers do go to considerable lengths in precision assembly on their flagship reels.

At the other extreme we have what I call imitation reels - the $50 jobs!. I am sure that these do not receive the same attention.

Still, it is good to have something to work from.

BTW, really like your avatar despite it's curious incongruity with your username
~

[Alto Mare]

Not into Shimano...especially those, I'm getting a headache just from listening to you guys .
Not quite sure what you are trying to get at and got me interested a little. Are you talking gear engagement with the pinion?
Please excuse my ignorance on this.

Sal

[exp2000]

Not into Shimano...especially those, I'm getting a headache just from listening to you guys .
Not quite sure what you are trying to get at and got me interested a little. Are you talking gear engagement with the pinion?
Please excuse my ignorance on this.

Sal

Yep, that's exactly right Sal.

Sometimes when you swap out the pinion/main-gear set in a reel, or even just re-seating the original components you can upset the tolerances turning your reel into a coffee grinder. Removing a shim will solve this problem by restoring sufficient clearance so that the gears will no longer bind up.

But exactly what are the ideal parameters you should aim for?
~

[Tiddlerbasher]

Brett keep on experimenting

[Alto Mare]

Not into Shimano...especially those, I'm getting a headache just from listening to you guys .
Not quite sure what you are trying to get at and got me interested a little. Are you talking gear engagement with the pinion?
Please excuse my ignorance on this.

Sal

Yep, that's exactly right Sal.

Sometimes when you swap out the pinion/main-gear set in a reel, or even just re-seating the original components you can upset the tolerances turning your reel into a coffee grinder. Removing a shim will solve this problem by restoring sufficient clearance so that the gears will no longer bind up.

But exactly what are the ideal parameters you should aim for?
~

Aah...takes me a while but will eventually get there , thanks Brett!
Not sure if it would be related to these reel, but I'm thinking why not! so, here goes my thought.
I'll mention my wagon and bricks
If you test the gears by just turning the handle on that reel while having the line unattached and you'll repeat that same test while dragging a wagon at its max drag, the end results should vary.
I'm no engineer...far from it, I'm just a general contractor.
I've done some personal tests on gear in the past  and noticed even though everything was running smooth on some, when applying drag at  max a little at a time, the gears actually slipped... not shredded, but slipped.
What I'm trying to say,  there are other parts to take into consideration, not sure how much of it comes into play, but there has to be some flexing with the bushings, bearings and shafts, if there was 0 flexing, the parts wouldn't rotate.
Probably all this doesn't make any sense, but wanted see if you had any thoughts on it.

Thank you for doing these tests for us, they're very interesting.

Sal

[mo65]

   I'm familiar with the "coffee grinder" effect...I just shimmed a Mitchell 301 to get rid of this problem. Many times the stock shims get lost in a glob of old grease. I once trashed a differential in a '75 Impala by not properly aligning a ring and pinion. This is the same principal, just on a much smaller and less critical level. 

[happyhooker]

Interesting info.

I always wondered if there was a way to measure, or at least perceive, the clearance on a Mitchell 300-type reel.  The problem is that the pinion gear that drives the rotor gear runs off the main gear.  So, even if you feel clearance when you move the handle in and out, that may just be the main gear sliding back and forth on the gear on the back side of the pinion gear, which says nothing about the clearance between the pinion and the rotor gear.

Frank

[Midway Tommy]

You guys are getting way to precise for this old guy. As long as it spins freely, doesn't bind up under stress and doesn't have excessive play or wobble I figure it's good to go.   But then I refuse to use or service any spinner that incorporates an oscillation worm gear.