Restoring older reel with green on it...

[Darin Crofton]

It's time I learn how to restore an older reel with green gunk on it. I've heard people saying they soak the whole reel first.
Is that correct? 50/50 water/vinegar? How long? Next step? Is there a post with all this info, so far I haven't found it?
Any help is greatly appreciated!!!
Darin

[foakes]

You don't mention what type of a reel it is, Darin —

And there are differences between materials and brands and types of reels.

But any reel needs to be taken completely apart beforehand —

If an old Penn, for example —

Disassemble, toss any metal parts into a straight Vinegar overnight — rings, posts, stands, all internals, screw, gears, etc..

The side plates just soaked in warm water and Dawn dish soap overnight.

Rinse everything and inspect —

The Verdigris (green salt corrosion) will now be stopped and arrested.

Soak all metal parts in mineral spirits overnight — rinse and dry.

If there are pits from the Verdigris — these will not get repaired — but they will be clean and not get any worse.  Their corrosion process will be halted.

Then, depending on the severity of the corrosion — decide if you wish to smooth the parts down or replace some of them.

After deciding, reassemble as we normally do with greased CF's, good Marine grease, and synthetic oil.

Test for function — line it up — and go fishing!

Best,

Fred

[Darin Crofton]

That's perfect, Fred, it's for mainly old Penn's!
Thank you so much, I'm going to start now...

[thorhammer]

One note- when doing old reels, or any reel for that matter: if the reel has a ton of grease / crud in it or on it, degrease first, before vinegar bath. If some corrosion got going then got greased by whatever chance later it will block the action of the vinegar bath...as what should have been done to it from the get-go.

[foakes]

That is true, John —

And that is what I also do if a reel is greased up heavily with old, dried crud.

The reason I did not mention it is because I use lacquer thinner along with an ultrasonic cleaner.

It can be dangerous if handled improperly, and some folks do not like the smell.

So I err on the side of caution when explaining to members.

But I have been around it all my life — and know of no other more effective/reasonable priced solution that flat out works.

Best,

Fred

[mo65]

  Some folks just rub a little oil or grease on that verdigris and kinda hide it. That ain't even a good quick fix. You need to stop that electrochemical process or she's just keep bubbling away. If the corrosion is serious, be prepared for some ugly parts.  You can have two parts with what looks like similar damage, and one will come out nice while the other looks like hell. Hey, I've had to go parts shopping more than once after soaking a reel. And on the other hand, I've been pleasantly surprised. It really is a roll of the dice. The bottom line is, if you want that reel to last, you have to stop that galvanic corrosion.

   Here's a link to a thread that offers a lot of clean up tips. http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=23935.08

[sdlehr]

Darin, I was one of the presenters at the last ORCA convention on Reel Restoration, and I was probably the one who wrote what you read about soaking the whole reel first. John Elder taught me that, he's probably the best reel restorer in the world, and he moves through a lot of reels. If I have several reels to do and can stagger them all I will soak overnight in vinegar (straight vinegar, but if it's a big reel and isn't covered I just add whatever amount of water is necessary). That vinegar soak removes exposed corrosion on brass and nickel silver and often penetrates to the corrosion that can be present on screw threads, loosening stuck screws in the process. After the vinegar bath, I soak overnight in mineral spirits. This removes the water and degreases almost everything. If the old grease is really old it may need a little help in places. If I'm just cleaning one reel I completely disassemble it, manually remove any caked-on grease, then soak all metals in vinegar, but the plates go right into the mineral spirits. Grease-covered corrosion isn't removed in the vinegar soak, so sometimes steps are repeated. I completely disassemble all reels, but when I've got several to do it's more efficient to soak them completely first, then disassemble and do the little bit of additional cleanup before reassembly. Warm vinegar works more rapidly. Most everything gets a toothbrush/dawn dish soap cleaning. User Penn reels get the jack, pinion yoke and bridge polished on the surfaces that rub together when shifting, and I file a bevel on the leading edges of the metals that slide over one another for smoother shifting. That can make a huge difference for some reels. User reels are greased with a marine grease as posted elsewhere, shelf reels get guts sprayed with a light oil. Drag grease depends on user vs collector and period correct materials - drag washers and grease (or dry).

Mo is right about the corrosion. I've discussed this extensively with a metallurgist on the ORCA discussion forum. The corrosion process starts with an acid dissolving the metal and oxidizing it (dissolved salt does this). As the corrosion process goes to completion it generates that molecule of acid back again at the end right on the metal surface, and it just keeps going. Given enough time it would cause the metal parts to disintegrate into a pile of green (Copper and nickel salts) or white (zinc salts) powder. ORCA is all about preserving old reels for future generations and stresses the importance of arresting this oxidation (corrosion) process. Once you coat the metal surfaces with a light oil, which repels water, all the corrosion stops. All the corrosion chemical reactions occur in a water medium, even if its just moisture at the interface of some metal and some of that green gunk.

I also found out that "verdigris" is, technically, not those green copper salts we see on our reels, it's actually a green copper acetate coating like seen on copper roofs weathered for a long time, particularly where there is acid rain. Real verdigris forms a protective coating that truly resists further oxidation, much unlike what we see on our reels, which continue to deteriorate. It's the difference between copper acetate (good stuff) and copper chloride (bad stuff).

If you are really interested in this subject there is an ORCA publication HERE that you might want to purchase.

[Darin Crofton]

Thanks everybody, I'm on my way now... I appreciate all the help!

[mo65]

I found out that "verdigris" is, technically, not those green copper salts we see on our reels, it's actually a green copper acetate coating like seen on copper roofs weathered for a long time, particularly where there is acid rain. Real verdigris forms a protective coating that truly resists further oxidation, much unlike what we see on our reels, which continue to deteriorate. It's the difference between copper acetate (good stuff) and copper chloride (bad stuff).

   Ahh...I see...it's the green on the Statue of Liberty! Thanks for the info Sid.

[Darin Crofton]

Darin, I was one of the presenters at the last ORCA convention on Reel Restoration, and I was probably the one who wrote what you read about soaking the whole reel first. John Elder taught me that, he's probably the best reel restorer in the world, and he moves through a lot of reels. If I have several reels to do and can stagger them all I will soak overnight in vinegar (straight vinegar, but if it's a big reel and isn't covered I just add whatever amount of water is necessary). That vinegar soak removes exposed corrosion on brass and nickel silver and often penetrates to the corrosion that can be present on screw threads, loosening stuck screws in the process. After the vinegar bath, I soak overnight in mineral spirits. This removes the water and degreases almost everything. If the old grease is really old it may need a little help in places. If I'm just cleaning one reel I completely disassemble it, manually remove any caked-on grease, then soak all metals in vinegar, but the plates go right into the mineral spirits. Grease-covered corrosion isn't removed in the vinegar soak, so sometimes steps are repeated. I completely disassemble all reels, but when I've got several to do it's more efficient to soak them completely first, then disassemble and do the little bit of additional cleanup before reassembly. Warm vinegar works more rapidly. Most everything gets a toothbrush/dawn dish soap cleaning. User Penn reels get the jack, pinion yoke and bridge polished on the surfaces that rub together when shifting, and I file a bevel on the leading edges of the metals that slide over one another for smoother shifting. That can make a huge difference for some reels. User reels are greased with a marine grease as posted elsewhere, shelf reels get guts sprayed with a light oil. Drag grease depends on user vs collector and period correct materials - drag washers and grease (or dry).

Mo is right about the corrosion. I've discussed this extensively with a metallurgist on the ORCA discussion forum. The corrosion process starts with an acid dissolving the metal and oxidizing it (dissolved salt does this). As the corrosion process goes to completion it generates that molecule of acid back again at the end right on the metal surface, and it just keeps going. Given enough time it would cause the metal parts to disintegrate into a pile of green (Copper and nickel salts) or white (zinc salts) powder. ORCA is all about preserving old reels for future generations and stresses the importance of arresting this oxidation (corrosion) process. Once you coat the metal surfaces with a light oil, which repels water, all the corrosion stops. All the corrosion chemical reactions occur in a water medium, even if its just moisture at the interface of some metal and some of that green gunk.

I also found out that "verdigris" is, technically, not those green copper salts we see on our reels, it's actually a green copper acetate coating like seen on copper roofs weathered for a long time, particularly where there is acid rain. Real verdigris forms a protective coating that truly resists further oxidation, much unlike what we see on our reels, which continue to deteriorate. It's the difference between copper acetate (good stuff) and copper chloride (bad stuff).

If you are really interested in this subject there is an ORCA publication HERE that you might want to purchase.

Sid, yes it was you and it got me thinking I might try this whole thing out, thanks for the inspiration!!!

[milne]

Hey Darin,
              Well, I still have me training wheels on regarding cleaning up old Penn reels, but, after about 30 odd now, I'm starting to get a bit
   of confidence. The vinegar bath is great, sometimes I leave it in for 4-5 hours, some time overnight, the shock of some of the chrome loss is
the worse thing to take, but as was told to me, you have to neurtralise that green enemy. Sometimes you get lucky and the chrome loss isn't as
bad as first thought, but at worst, you will fix the corrosion issue and have a reel that will survive, albeit with a more patina'd look !!
All of the above advice is what I have taken on board and used and it's a great feeling when the reel is reassembled and you know it's been saved.
I have a few containers which I throw the parts into after the vinegar bath and with a bit of WD40 and a tooth brush, give it a right scrubbing into every nook and craney,  I have a ultrasonic cleaner which I haven't ventured into using yet, till I read a few more tips, but I'm sure that it will work well too as I already use it for all my Carb parts on my vintage bikes I restore, just haven't got around to using it yet.
It's actually an enjoyable exercise Darin, I look forward to stripping down and cleaning any new reel I get now.

But I will offer up my services, should you feel the job is cumbersome and you don't have time !
Just send me all your Pre War knuckle busters and first generation Senators ( 6/0, 10/0, 14/0 & 16/0 )  first and I promise as I get them done
for you I'll return them in the post promptly......  Promise    

Good luck with it Darin,  don't forget to show us a few before and afters as you go.

Col

[Darin Crofton]

Hey Darin,
              Well, I still have me training wheels on regarding cleaning up old Penn reels, but, after about 30 odd now, I'm starting to get a bit
   of confidence. The vinegar bath is great, sometimes I leave it in for 4-5 hours, some time overnight, the shock of some of the chrome loss is
the worse thing to take, but as was told to me, you have to neurtralise that green enemy. Sometimes you get lucky and the chrome loss isn't as
bad as first thought, but at worst, you will fix the corrosion issue and have a reel that will survive, albeit with a more patina'd look !!
All of the above advice is what I have taken on board and used and it's a great feeling when the reel is reassembled and you know it's been saved.
I have a few containers which I throw the parts into after the vinegar bath and with a bit of WD40 and a tooth brush, give it a right scrubbing into every nook and craney,  I have a ultrasonic cleaner which I haven't ventured into using yet, till I read a few more tips, but I'm sure that it will work well too as I already use it for all my Carb parts on my vintage bikes I restore, just haven't got around to using it yet.
It's actually an enjoyable exercise Darin, I look forward to stripping down and cleaning any new reel I get now.

But I will offer up my services, should you feel the job is cumbersome and you don't have time !
Just send me all your Pre War knuckle busters and first generation Senators ( 6/0, 10/0, 14/0 & 16/0 )  first and I promise as I get them done
for you I'll return them in the post promptly......  Promise    

Good luck with it Darin,  don't forget to show us a few before and afters as you go.

Col

Col, thank you for the words of encouragement, I have a bunch of reels that will need the "Treatment" and I'm looking forward to everyone of them!
Right now I have an old 1/0 Senator taking a vinegar bath and will switch it out in the morning into some mineral spirits...

[54bullseye]

I use WD-40 an old toothbrush and 4/0 steel wool. Sometimes Semi Chrome on an old small piece of towel that is saturated with it. Never tried vinegar but heard you get more chrome loss ?? I try to stay away from the real green corroded reels when buying unless rare and cheap.   John Taylor

[RowdyW]

Vinegar will nuetralize the corrosion. Soap & water, oil, mineral spirits, etc. will not.           Rudy

[thorhammer]

That is true, John —

And that is what I also do if a reel is greased up heavily with old, dried crud.

The reason I did not mention it is because I use lacquer thinner along with an ultrasonic cleaner.

It can be dangerous if handled improperly, and some folks do not like the smell.

So I err on the side of caution when explaining to members.

But I have been around it all my life — and know of no other more effective/reasonable priced solution that flat out works.



Hey Fred, i recently got an US cleaner and have been meaning to ask you what you use in yours, noted!!

Best,

Fred