Penn 113h Reel/Tank

George4741 · September 29, 2012, 02:08:33 AM

Neat idea. I'm impressed!

Alto Mare · September 29, 2012, 02:09:03 AM

I hear what you're saying and see where you're trying to get to. I'm more concearned on the handle turning under load, but i don't know much about those bearings, or how tight the tolerance is. Testing on the water should answer the question for us.

johndtuttle · September 29, 2012, 02:24:44 AM

Quote from: Alto Mare on September 29, 2012, 02:09:03 AM
I hear what you're saying and see where you're trying to get to. I'm more concearned on the handle turning under load, but i don't know much about those bearings, or how tight the tolerance is. Testing on the water should answer the question for us.

Yep, exactly what I'm thinking too and it certainly remains unproven. On the ID it seems there is a tiny bit of play. I'm not certain if this is simply the cage and how it normally plays or not. The OD is a perfect fit in the opening in the body so is very well supported.

johndtuttle · September 29, 2012, 03:26:57 AM

Observation:

When the drag is cranked down it of course traps the sleeve of the bearing between the star and the drag washers so that it rotates against the opening. The Baja Bearing system is different in that the pressure goes entirely in the ID ring leaving the OD ring to remain unmoving.

Effectively, the bearing is acting as an "oil bearing" or like a much thicker OD sleeve than the stock. The question becomes: Can it rotate against the body opening like this and not cause untoward binding and wear? And at highest drag pressures that you are cranking against at what point does it bind against the body and turn freely on the inside only.....hmmmm. $:-\$

Dominick · September 29, 2012, 04:55:40 AM

Thanks John and Sal. This is the kind of thinking that makes this site terrific. Dominick

Bryan Young · September 29, 2012, 11:29:15 AM

By the looks of it, I think it needs a inner collar, much like the AR bearings to allow the shaft to rotate smoothly and not bind the bearing. Very interesting. Something to look into for sure.

Well done.

saltydog · September 29, 2012, 01:31:36 PM

Looks like a good idea,I wonder what it will do under load,looks like some adult bobber fishing is in order.

Makule · September 29, 2012, 04:23:39 PM

Quote from: Bryan Young on September 29, 2012, 11:29:15 AM
By the looks of it, I think it needs a inner collar, much like the AR bearings to allow the shaft to rotate smoothly and not bind the bearing.

I agree. Without an inner collar, if/when the bearing cover does contact the side plate, there will be friction. Given that the sleeve should take up most of the tangential forces, this may not be much, however, unless given regular cleaning and lube, it should be fairly easy to have some grit wedge in between and cause binding.

johndtuttle · September 29, 2012, 06:27:27 PM

As far as a sleeve inside goes I think we may be constrained by the dimensions. This bearing certainly has no room for one on the inside and the difference of the ID to OD is only 3/16" to fit around the handle shaft but fit inside the 11/16" opening in the body.

The Baja Special has a traditional bearing that has the inner ring functioning as a sleeve with a small sleeve underneath it to keep the ID ring isolated so that the bearings themselves to not receive axial (or thrust) load (if I understand the terms correctly) and there is no friction on the side plate.

The Alternative would be to use a bearing just like it or even the same one, and any competent machinist could mill out our body plate to the right size and we could plug one in.

Is there anyone out there that has a Baja Special handle bearing (part #55B) and a pair of calipers that could tell us the dimensions? It would be nice to know if the ID is the same as the diameter of a 113H gear sleeve so that we could easily use those parts after modifying the side plate, though I would probably send the bearing to a machinist as well to be sure it was a perfect fit.

best

ps. Part of my motivation for this is to come up with more reliable cranking power, but even at lower drag settings. The big "bottleneck" in making a tank seems to be the scarcity and cost of the Stainless Main Gear and Pinion ($70-90). If the gears can be supported by bearing much better than they should hold up reliably to 20lbs drag I would think? And maybe reduce the entry cost to greatly improving an old 113H.

Alto Mare · September 29, 2012, 11:03:31 PM

John, I appreciate your effort. I just don't see what we'll gain by adding a sleeve on the inside of the bearing, to me this would make the bearing useless. I haven't experienced any problems at that area and yes I do believe that my tank could handle 25lb if needed. Most times the problem with gears stripping is related to the frame twisting under load, I believe that we're OK here. The additional dog also helps keeping the sleeve square under load by holding pressure on both sides of the gear sleeve. You're right there is a little flex there but not enough to create any problems, I'm sure they all flex at that area. I'm liking the way you're thinking, bu I don't believe that this one will work. Don't give up, I'm sure that you'll come up with something. Thanks again.
Sal

johndtuttle · September 29, 2012, 11:28:23 PM

Quote from: Alto Mare on September 29, 2012, 11:03:31 PM
John, I appreciate your effort. I just don't see what we'll gain by adding a sleeve on the inside of the bearing, to me this would make the bearing useless. I haven't experienced any problems at that area and yes I do believe that my tank could handle 25lb if needed. Most times the problem with gears stripping is related to the frame twisting under load, I believe that we're OK here. The additional dog also helps keeping the sleeve square under load by holding pressure on both sides of the gear sleeve. You're right there is a little flex there but not enough to create any problems, I'm sure they all flex at that area. I'm liking the way you're thinking, bu I don't believe that this one will work. Don't give up, I'm sure that you'll come up with something. Thanks again.
Sal

O yea, to be sure all we are really accomplishing is a re-invention of the Baja special, not creating something totally new. The beauty of the 113H is that so many have come up with mods for it over the years as it has been so amenable to it. What a sleeve does is create a more uniform surface for the needles in the bearing to work on. In the Baja bearing it's just standard in a bearing of that type. The additional sleeve in the Baja Special below the bearing supports this inner ring of the bearing to prevent the washers from pinching the shields and harming the balls inside (I believe).

1. Firstly, I come to this with no formal training other than my college physics. I am an MD and Molecular Biology Researcher. So I'm no mechanical engineer to be sure.

2. As far as reels go, I never really thought of them in a technical sense until I started using high end spinners. Then, with Alan Hawk's and Master Tani's reviews as inspiration it started occurring to me just what made them work or not and how easy it was to self service them (and how sweet they work when you do).

3. Shimano has made an entire marketing campaign based on "x-ship" which is essentially an additional bearing support of the pinion. If you had used a reel that simply had a bushing then used the identical reel with a bearing installed in the same spot you notice right away there are significant increases in cranking power. It has kinda led me to think in a "let's add a bearing!" sort of way.

4. The unsupported length of the lever that the gear sleeve represents was remarkable to me.The Baja Special is a perfect example of this with numerous additional bearings to improve strength, durability and casting.

5. The dogs themselves shouldn't add much if any torsional resistance to the gear sleeve as good as it is to have two. The vector for the force they exert is perpendicular to that created by the handle when it flexes the gear sleeve at the side plate opening.

6. Penn themselves added a bearing in this spot to support the handle in the Baja Special after the reel had been used at length. I think we can safely assume that they did so for good reason

so I thought to myself "heck why not".

Anyways, it's all for kicks and grins and fun to see how far we can take such a fun reel to cheaply mod into whatever form we get to call our own. Thanks for the inspiration.

best

Alto Mare · September 30, 2012, 12:26:16 AM

John, Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I wasn't referring to your idea not working, I was talking about the bearing with collar/ sleeves. The reason I believe that it wouldn't work is that as soon as you apply pressure, the collar would become immobile, therefore rendering the bearing useless. About the additional dog, yes I agree that it doesn't stop it from flexing, but I do believe that it helps. Two dogs are better than one. Take care, Sal

johndtuttle · September 30, 2012, 12:42:08 AM

Quote from: Alto Mare on September 30, 2012, 12:26:16 AM
John, Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I wasn't referring to your idea not working, I was talking about the bearing with collar/ sleeves. The reason I believe that it wouldn't work is that as soon as you apply pressure, the collar would become immobile, therefore rendering the bearing useless. About the additional dog, yes I agree that it doesn't stop it from flexing, but I do believe that it helps. Two dogs are better than one. Take care, Sal

Yea, it's kinda hard to explain without a diagram....

bear with me:

The drag washer (#8) puts force on the bearing on either the outer sleeve (in my case with a needle bearing) or the inner sleeve (in the case of penn's standard bearing). When you crank down the star this force immobilizes the sleeve it comes in contact with and it is frozen between the drag washers and the star. In my case that sleeve then has to rotate against the side plate when you crank, a potential source of friction and wear. Basically the outer part of the bearing has to rotate in it's receptacle which to some extent defeats the purpose of the bearing...The question remains if this is much of an issue over time.

In the case of the Penn method, when you crank the inner sleeve moves but the outer sleeve doesn't, functioning like a bearing normally would. The inner sleeve can operate independently of the outer, with no friction on the side plate and causing no wear over time.

The method I posted was more than anything looking for a sleeve that would fill the 11/16 opening completely as well as have the ID to shim tight on the inside to stiffen up the gear sleeve. I chose the needle bearing because it was all I could find that had the right inner and outer dimensions....Unfortunately even though the friction I feel when the star is tightened seems to be all drag, with load the side plate would take more force and might cause problems if used in true "tank" conditions (ie 20+lbs of drag).

best regards, and sorry to get long winded above.

Alto Mare · September 30, 2012, 02:09:06 AM

Yes John I get it about the outer sleeve being frozen when applying drag pressure and the gear sleeve moving along with the bearings, I was talking about the inner sleeve, that would be useless anless you keep the outer sleeve attached to the plate, that doesn't make sense to me., but it might just be me.

johndtuttle · September 30, 2012, 02:14:39 AM

Quote from: Alto Mare on September 30, 2012, 02:09:06 AM
Yes John I get it about the outer sleeve being frozen when applying drag pressure and the gear sleeve moving along with the bearings, I was talking about the inner sleeve, that would be useless anless you keep the outer sleeve attached to the plate, that doesn't make sense to me., but it might just be me.

If it is fit well the tiniest amount of friction should cause it to freeze and and allow the bearing to function like it should transmitting no friction from the side plate to your cranking effort.