Jigging Master Carbon Parts: Update 2

[Clem]

Hey All,

I have read many threads regarding the different setup people have and prefer, but a common word used throughout is "balance". I have tried to keep this in the back of my mind as I have gone about trying to improve my gear and overall setup.

I decided sometime ago to start with my reels, starting with my JM's. I began with the outside of the reel and decided to make a replacement arm and handle, the factory parts are fine and I haven't had any problems but I just wanted something different and thought I would try Carbon Fiber (CF). This turned out ok and I learnt a lot so I started to think about other parts that might be able to be replaced or reproduced in CF.



CF is relatively strong but not that easy to work with due to what it is made from (raw CF and polyester/epoxy resin). I have found that it lends itself to most applications but not all, at least not in its basic form. One of the issues relates to parts that require to be threaded, it can be threaded (as long as it's not load bearing) otherwise you really need to add a threaded insert (Ti or similar).

When you disassemble a reel and start looking at each part and its function, it soon becomes clear which parts "lend" themselves towards modification or replacement. IMHO the PE5N is a simple but effective design (based on the Accurate reel), relatively light at 570gm (20oz) with a good twin drag system offering (35-60lbs "efficient" drag). No reason to touch it on that basis but I enjoy "tinkering" so let's have a look...

One of the things that initially stood out was the size of the factory carbon washer used? I wondered why it didn't maximize the available area of the spool? (from memory the Accurate does?)..my assumption is, that if you increase the "drag surface area" you can increase the overall drag limit or use less pressure to obtain the same level of drag. It reminds me of stopping work turning on a lathe..if you flick the switch on the lathe and try and stop the work turning in a set amount of time, it will require a certain amount of pressure – how much pressure seems to be primarily dependent on the size of the item (surface area) used to stop it.



Based on the above, the smaller the area the higher the pressure required - obviously the material and surface will effect this. High pressure...higher heat (friction) so my thinking is to reduce the pressure by increasing the surface area..So, I have custom cut a larger washer (carbon) to maximize the area..I won't bore you with the calculations but an increase of approx 17%. (please let me say that I do not have any formal training regarding this stuff)

So the new washer is fitted to both sides and I can't see much else that can be done with the spool..

Let's have a look at the drag plate/shaft assy, you will see that the main rotor/plates are not the same for each side. The key hole is the main difference as the thickness and overall OD is the same; the assembly is a normal setup with a main rotor/plate – pressure plate and a series of shim washers to obtain the right tolerances. On the left hand side these washers are held in place with a C-clip and on the right hand side float between the spool and main shaft bearing.



There are a lot of good threads about that discuss the drag subject in detail (by people who know more about the subject than me)..I have been fortunate to have never been spooled and I have not once needed to lock down the drag..(decided to chase a fish maybe twice).on that basis the various rod and reel combinations I have used over the years, have normally been up to the task for the fish I have caught..So what to do here...after much pondering I decided to make a completely new set of rotor/plates from Carbon Fiber...

Left hand side



Right hand side



Why?

Well I based it on the following,

•   Significantly lighter in weight
•   Good ability to dissipate heat
•   Able to increase the mass of the main rotor/plate (assist heat dissipation)



Apart from that I just wanted to see if would work...I have learnt a bit about CF and its properties however, there is nothing like just trying it. I decided to make the washers with the same key hole dimensions but I made each of the washers thicker than the originals. By doing this I was able to eliminate the pressure washer and build more mass into the main rotor/plate. The obvious question - Can the CF rotor/plate handle the heat generated by the reel when the drag is engaged.

To answer that accurately you need to know what temperature the rotor/plate gets to when the drag is engaged.

This depends on,

•   The pressure (level of drag applied)
•   The size of the drag plate/rotor and the drag washer
•   The material used for the rotor/plate – washer
•   The time the drag is engaged
•   The speed of the run

Unfortunately I didn't have the time to bench test the various scenarios, but I did do a few basic trials to see how it might perform.. from the basic tests I did I found the additional surface area and the CF rotor/plate equated to approx a quarter/half turn on the drag knob (less pressure to obtain the same amount of drag)...I then decided to pop them in and just try them...after almost 3 months and 4 trips my assumption is that they work really well..as good as the steel washers..obviously a lot lighter in weight.

I think the use of CF in this way might create some discussion – Raw CF material is good for about 1000 C, the limiting factor is the resin used and the process to cure, that said there are lots of resin options that have High Temp application. The testing I did was based on CF using a resin with a 90-100 C rating...I really didn't know what would happen (not knowing how hot things would get) but I thought it was worth trying, I actually thought they might melt or soften..It surprised me, every time I checked them they were fine – Remember, I setup with approx 10kg drag through the rod..I've had a few runs but nothing notable regarding the length of the run. So I decided the car and a quiet street was required....much to the amusement of the few people driving by.

So without purposely trying to destroy my reel I set about doing a few tests...mindful of the type of fishing I do with this combo. No intention of a 50kmhr, 370m run at 10kg as my mate suggested. Ended up doing a number of 20-40m runs intermitted with 5-10 sec pauses..anyway, a long story short they worked perfectly..Would they stand up to a single 370m run at that setting? I really don't know..In my 30 odd years of fishing I have never had such a thing happen...but I guess it could. I think I would be inclined to chase the fish if it was that big..anyway as you can see, nothing scientific about the above but was enough for me to keep fishing with them...this is a big subject so won't go on now.

The right side assy also contains the Anti Reverse ratchet gear...I made one of these from CF also..again some basic tests but I believe it's more than capable...you could change other things, Ti shafts etc but the cost/benefit may not be there?






Summary of what I have done so far..

Part - Grams        Factory           CF        Saving
Crank Arm                    24           12          12
LH Rotor/washer            26            7          19
RH Rotor/washer            28            8             20
Anti Reverse Ratchet     13            2              11
                                       
Total weight saving            Grams          62
                                      Oz         2.2

It's not too bad considering the factory item is quite light to start with; I'm making a new Ti shaft to take a new grip which should save another 40 odd grams – so in total I should be able to get almost 4oz off the factory reel without compromising anything.

This would mean that my PE5N (465gm 16.40oz) would now weigh less than a factory PE3 (490gm 17.30oz). Some of this stuff applies across the range of JM's but the weight saving will vary depending on the model. It's certainly nice to fish with light gear.

I think the principles could be used for any reel, anyway I have caught the bug and I'm now making various things for people all over the place....won't give up my day job anytime soon but I do enjoy it and who knows..

As the Carbontex washers are Dawns specialty, I will send her a drawing of the modified Carbontex washer in case anyone might want to replace their current ones....

Have a few other things in progress so will update you all again soon..

[alantani]

clem, is this gonna work ?      

[Clem]

Hi Alan,

That is a very good question...

I have only had them a couple of months..I'm actually a very skeptical person, but I think the only way to get a clear answer on this one is to simply try it?

They appear OK so far, but as I say they have only had 4 or 5 trips...I will update the thread as time goes on..

Will check and report the,

Effect of heat?
Surface wear?
Compatibility with oils/grease

I'm off to Southern Oman soon to chase some Gt's so that might be a good test? (will be backed up by the Stella though )

[Bryan Young]

Clem, WOW!...WOW!.

[redsetta]

Loving it Clem - another great post.
I've been trying to get some custom S/S ratchet gears made, but will have to look into CF now.
The level of detail and consideration is excellent, and much appreciated.
Cheers mate - and good luck on your Oman trip.
All the best, Justin
PS How'd you cut the ratchet gear (particularly the rounded-square ID)?

[Clem]

Hi Justin,

The ratchet is milled - with respect to this part, the time is in the drawing..obviously there is a relationship between the keyhole and the placement of the teeth. I fluked this one and it only takes a small amount of finishing with a file. One of the benefits of CF is that you can build more mass into any part (if space allows) without adding a lot of weight.

The pics I posted of the CF rotors are actually the first ones I cut, they needed to be milled further to get the clearance required from other parts...work fine now.

Gator have been using CF rotors on their Mountain bikes and say they have held up well..(pics below)

If you need any help with parts just let me know..I can get access to a mill, especially if its a prototype to test..mail is about 5-6 bucks between here and there. I have been doing the 2d stuff and mate helps me with 3d if required..be happy to help

[Dominick]

Hey Clem keep coming up with this great stuff.  Now that you have made me fell inadequate, I'm gonna quit this site .  Dominick

[Bryan Young]

I may need your expertise in the future.  CF break rotors for my mountain bike...fishing reel parts?  Think of the possibilities?  WOW!

[Nessie Hunter]

**AMAZING**    Great work Clem.....  Real eye opener..   

[redsetta]

Cheers Clem - much appreciated.
Will draw up the parts over the break and enter them into an AutoCAD DXF file.
I'll do preliminary S/S versions on a waterjet, then source the CF and work that out (no doubt with a few queries coming your way).
Thanks again, Justin

[coastalobsession]

Wow its crazy how much lighter those parts are!