Penn 113h stainless gears and yoke

[ky_sharker]

I'm wanting to upgrade the gears in my extra wide 113h to the stainless and have a couple questions. First are 4 to 1 the only gear ratio stainless gears come in or does someone make them in the stock ratio and would there be a difference in strength? Second does anyone know where to get the SS pinion yoke pro challenger and smooth drag don't have them in stock. I'm also looking for a unique power handle if anyone has some suggestions or a good cheap one lol

[SoCalAngler]

Penn at one time made a steel main gear for the 113H's in the 3.25:1. Don't  know where you can find some though. I have one in a Progear YTS that I use for 50 lb test. Good luck.

I don't think the 3.25:1 would be any stronger than the 4:1, the lower gear would offer a bit more cracking power.

[ky_sharker]

Penn at one time made a steel main gear for the 113H's in the 3.25:1. Don't  know where you can find some though. I have one in a Progear YTS that I use for 50 lb test. Good luck.

I don't think the 3.25:1 would be any stronger than the 4:1, the lower gear would offer a bit more cracking power.

OK ill probably just go with the 4:1 then. I don't think that the difference in cranking power will matter much.

[jurelometer]

Penn at one time made a steel main gear for the 113H's in the 3.25:1. Don't  know where you can find some though. I have one in a Progear YTS that I use for 50 lb test. Good luck.

I don't think the 3.25:1 would be any stronger than the 4:1, the lower gear would offer a bit more cracking power.

Agree with SoCal from a practical perspective that the 4:1 standard setup would be pretty strong,  but lowering the gear ratio actually makes a significant portion  of the reel "stronger".

We just went  through this on the 112H gear shredding thread.

For star drag reels, switching to a lower gear rato takes a corresponding amount of load off anything working off the handle shaft, including the gears, dogs and drag stack.  In this case, we are talking about roughly 80% of the original force  required to resist the same amount of force trying to pull lin off the reel.

You can also get the same amount of cranking power (torque) with a handle arm that is only 80% of the original.  Less  chance of pulling the gear sleeve/ shaft out of alignment  with a shorter arm.

The are more details in the other thread:https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=31537.0

Whether it is worth it is up to you.   The stock 4:1 gear teeth  on the 113H are still pretty beefy, so it is not as extreme a situation as the 112H with aftermarket 5:1 gears.  But the same principles apply.
  (Looks like the stock gears on the 113H were all 3.25:1.  Thanks to Rudy for the correction)
-J

[nelz]

Or you can buy an older model used 113H (the one with the external access drag) and it will have steel 3.25:1 gears. Won't be stainless, but that's never been an issue with properly greased gears.

[RowdyW]

The older steel 113h 3.25 gears are heat treated so potentially they are stronger then the bronze 3.25 gears. The bronze gears are smoother cranking then the steel gears though. I'm not hearing of anybody stripping a 113h bronze gear unless it was a worn out gear from a reel that was in severe service like years of use on commercial boats. For myself in the 113h, 114h, & 115 I like the original heat treated steel gears & I beleive that Penn got the ratio right for all three. By the way the stock gear ratio on the 113h is 3.25 for both the steel & bronze gears.         Rudy

[jurelometer]

The older steel 113h 3.25 gears are heat treated so potentially they are stronger then the bronze 3.25 gears. The bronze gears are smoother cranking then the steel gears though. I'm not hearing of anybody stripping a 113h bronze gear unless it was a worn out gear from a reel that was in severe service like years of use on commercial boats. For myself in the 113h, 114h, & 115 I like the original heat treated steel gears & I beleive that Penn got the ratio right for all three. By the way the stock gear ratio on the 113h is 3.25 for both the steel & bronze gears.         Rudy

Oops.

Thanks Rudy -  I will correct my post.

-J

[SoCalAngler]

Penn at one time made a steel main gear for the 113H's in the 3.25:1. Don't  know where you can find some though. I have one in a Progear YTS that I use for 50 lb test. Good luck.

I don't think the 3.25:1 would be any stronger than the 4:1, the lower gear would offer a bit more cracking power.

Agree with SoCal from a practical perspective that the 4:1 standard setup would be pretty strong,  but lowering the gear ratio actually makes a significant portion  of the reel "stronger".

We just went  through this on the 112H gear shredding thread.

For star drag reels, switching to a lower gear rato takes a corresponding amount of load off anything working off the handle shaft, including the gears, dogs and drag stack.  In this case, we are talking about roughly 80% of the original force  required to resist the same amount of force trying to pull lin off the reel.

You can also get the same amount of cranking power (torque) with a handle arm that is only 80% of the original.  Less  chance of pulling the gear sleeve/ shaft out of alignment  with a shorter arm.

The are more details in the other thread:https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=31537.0

Whether it is worth it is up to you.   The stock 4:1 gear teeth  on the 113H are still pretty beefy, so it is not as extreme a situation as the 112H with aftermarket 5:1 gears.  But the same principles apply.
  (Looks like the stock gears on the 113H were all 3.25:1.  Thanks to Rudy for the correction)
-J

You have to remember the guy using the 112 was using 30 lb test like. IMO that line should of snapped way before the gear was damaged like that. I feel something else was going on with that reel, maybe a few things.

[ky_sharker]

I'll do some digging on the net and see if I can find some 3.25:1 gears but I'm sure the 4:1 gears will be fine. I don't think I'd ever strip the bronze gears fishing for cats but I want a tank for my occasional saltwater trips

[Maxed Out]

 The "brass gear set" is a brass alloy and is actually harder than many grades of steel. Any shreading of gears would be due to misalignment and that is usually caused by a bad gear sleeve or a worn out yoke.

[jurelometer]

The "brass gear set" is a brass alloy and is actually harder than many grades of steel. Any shreading of gears would be due to misalignment and that is usually caused by a bad gear sleeve or a worn out yoke.

Good point about the bronze gears.  I haven't seen Penn provide any more detail other than "marine grade bronze".   

Since a gear sleeve design requires a relatively small diameter shaft (post) and does not  support the main gear shaft on both sides, from a pure engineering standpoint, this is where the misalignment is going to happen, either from pulling /pushing the main gear shaft out of alignment from winding hard (especially with a long handle arm) combined with  the bi-direrctional axial forces inherent in helical gears, forcing them apart until only the teeth edges are engaging.  I can see the shredding being a one-time event, or stress over a long period of time weakening/wearing  the gear sleeve and post. 

The pinion cannot be forced out of alignment any more than the clearance between the spindle and pinion hole allows (not much).  After that, any misalignment on the pinion shaft side requires bending the spindle,


I am curious about the yoke being a contributor, since the yoke only interacts with the pinion.

The significant axial thrust inherent in helical gears continuously drives the pinion towards the spool when under load, so the yoke should not be contributing much to holding the pinion in place under load.  I could see a bad yoke not doing a good job of engaging the pinion all the way onto the spindle- but that should manifest in a fried pinion junction.  The main and pinion would still be aligned,  it is just that some small percentage of the available length of the tooth would not be utilized.  The pinion still has to bend the spindle to get significantly far out of whack.   Maybe it could get a little off, and start riding up the main gear and forcing the main gear out of alignment, but that seems a stretch. 


--------

The Penn (and similar) gear sleeve design gets away with the gear sleeve/post weakness because they use gears with big teeth and a lot of backlash. If the gears get a bit out of alignment, there is still plenty of meat (tooth width) left where the teeth engage, and the backlash helps prevent binding.  With small (and therefore shallow) teeth, the margin of error for misalignment is correspondingly smaller.

Hot-rodding the reels to use higher gear ratios  (and therefore smaller teeth) decreases this protection to varying degrees depending on the reels and gear ratios involved.  The reel may be strong enough for the new intended purpose, but will not be as strong as before. 

Discussed in more detail in the previously mentioned thread.

-J

[ky_sharker]

Ok so should I stick with the stock gears for strength? It has a pro challenger stainless double dog bridge and 10 tooth stainless sleeve on a tiburon Hawaiian wide frame and spool. Im going to use it to target big cats here in Kentucky and whatever wants a chunk of cut bait in saltwater

[RowdyW]

A stock unmodified 113h will handle the cats but you never know what you might hook into in the ocean. You replaced the main thing to increase durability in the reel by using a ss gear sleeve. I have one reel that I used a double dog bridge on set up with alternating dogs just to get rid of some of the backlash in the handle. IMO the strongest way to double dog a Senator is to have both dogs anchored by the bridge screws. I don't beleive that anchoring the dogs on single posts on the bridge is the way to go strength wise. Remember that when you beef up a part in the reel all the load and durability shifts to a different area of weakness in the reel. The bigger the bait, the bigger the fish but that is not set in stone. If you are using the bronze main gear & it is in good condition you should be fine. It's just my preference to use the older heat treated steel main gears even if they feel slightly rougher. Penn probably made the switch to bronze gears just to make the reel feel smoother.             Rudy

[jurelometer]

IMO the strongest way to double dog a Senator is to have both dogs anchored by the bridge screws. I don't beleive that anchoring the dogs on single posts on the bridge is the way to go strength wise.

Agree.  Mechanical Engineering 101:  Shafts that take a lateral load should  be supported on both sides.

There are some tradeoffs if you can't get the dogs to engage at the correct angle with the pawl, but all else being equal, bridge screws will make for stronger dogs than bridge plate posts.

-J

[mo65]

IMO the strongest way to double dog a Senator is to have both dogs anchored by the bridge screws. I don't beleive that anchoring the dogs on single posts on the bridge is the way to go strength wise.

Agree.  Mechanical Engineering 101:  Shafts that take a lateral load should  be supported on both sides.

   Mark me as agreed to this also. I've watched for AR dog failures the past few years, and more occur in the bridge post designs than the bridge screw designs. And most times it is the post that fails...not the dog. This is why I still use brass dogs on bridge screws when doing DD mods on the smaller Penns. It's economical, and it works. I think steel dogs are a good idea on the big Senators though.