SUCK IT UP AND GET STRONGER(old bakelite)

Gfish · August 12, 2020, 03:02:43 AM

The patient: bulging discs. Happens to a lot of old bakelite side-plate Penns. So what's good about bakelite? Low weight, can be ground/cut easily for modifications(this one is double dogged), inexpensive and no corrosion. The bad; sewlling which partly pushes off the rings where there are no screws.
Causes? Sunlight?, saltwater?, grease/oil? old age? I owen't know...Also, bakelite can crack(probably dropping the reel, more often than not).

This 2/0 Senator had no issues such as spool rub. But why not try'n correct the unsightliness before a problem starts and at the same time, strengthen the frame?

Notice there's a 1.5-2mm gap on each side-plate/ring.

Gfish · August 12, 2020, 03:42:18 AM

)The operating table is ready doctor. 2)"Miss BESSEY, my only vice"!

Proceedure; "drill babey, drill"! A 9/64" hole, through the rings + side-plate after alot of positioning and marking with a sharpie. Try to get the post straight from all angles, then make sure my big fat thumb can touch the spool/line and not hit the new post. A large diameter spool makes this eaiser. Definitely have to smack a divit into the chromed brass ring to start the hole.

Went real slow as I don't have a good jig to hold the reel or a drill press. Lots of stopping, cleaning shavings, oiling, checking all angles. Must check backside vice-jaw placement sos not to damage the bridge or click spring.

Drilled a countersink hole for the outside tapered-head screws.

The post is a smaller diameter one than those of this 111. Older reel = skinnier or fatter posts?

Gfish · August 12, 2020, 04:04:19 AM

1) the tail-plate ready to button up. New screw/hole in the top of the bakelite.

2) pause, Notice the screw arrangement. It's easy to mess-up during assembly. But they have to go where you see them positioned. 1st thing to check after assembly: do any screws protrude out from the inside of the stand? If so, they could catch on the line if there are any coils.

Don't understand the engineering reasons for doing it this way. That is, all the cylinder head screws only hold down the inside ring, tapered head screws hold all 3 side-plate parts to the frame posts.

Gfish · August 12, 2020, 04:25:35 AM

All buttoned up.
1) The new skinny post. Guess what? It still spins the same!
2) Look closely, the gaps from swelling did not disappear completely, but there is dramatic "suck it up" improvement. Also the frame should now be a little stronger.

This a nice beefed up Senator 2/0. SS gear sleeve, 5-stack drag, power handle/knob, double dogs and an aluminium spool. A good 2.5:1 geared trolling wench, with tail-plate magnets (however I haven't tried casting it yet). I really love these old gals.

sabaman1 · August 12, 2020, 05:46:23 AM

Nice job, G !

oc1 · August 12, 2020, 06:52:06 AM

Nice job Greg. You can't tell it's not a factory job.

Quote from: Gfish on August 12, 2020, 03:02:43 AM
bakelite? Causes? Sunlight?, saltwater?, grease/oil? old age?

I used to think water, but now I think grease/oil/solvents. Here's why:

I went inside our son's 146 while a guide was being repaired. The quick take-apart worked easier than most when I pulled off the head plate. It was pretty nasty in there but I did not really want to do a total breakdown. So, I just removed the handle and put the head plate with gears, clutch and all into a baggie with some naphtha, then put the baggie into the ultrasonic. A half hour later, I blew out the naphtha and crud with compressed air until dry and squirted some Reel-X on everything. Done? No, I couldn't get the quick take-apart back on. It came off so easily but it would only rotate about half way back. I fussed with it for a while and eventually had it bound up so I could not get it fully engaged and could not get it back off. I tried some persuasion and broke the friggin' bakelite. I was pissed but was able to buy another 146 from IronMike. Thank you Mike. It worked out great.

Anyway, I am forced to assume that the naphtha made the bakelite swell and the swollen bakelite made the quick take-apart rings swell. Thank so?

-steve

Mandelstam · August 12, 2020, 10:41:38 AM

Quote from: oc1 on August 12, 2020, 06:52:06 AM
Nice job Greg. You can't tell it's not a factory job.

Quote from: Gfish on August 12, 2020, 03:02:43 AM
bakelite? Causes? Sunlight?, saltwater?, grease/oil? old age?

I used to think water, but now I think grease/oil/solvents. Here's why:

I went inside our son's 146 while a guide was being repaired. The quick take-apart worked easier than most when I pulled off the head plate. It was pretty nasty in there but I did not really want to do a total breakdown. So, I just removed the handle and put the head plate with gears, clutch and all into a baggie with some naphtha, then put the baggie into the ultrasonic. A half hour later, I blew out the naphtha and crud with compressed air until dry and squirted some Reel-X on everything. Done? No, I couldn't get the quick take-apart back on. It came off so easily but it would only rotate about half way back. I fussed with it for a while and eventually had it bound up so I could not get it fully engaged and could not get it back off. I tried some persuasion and broke the friggin' bakelite. I was pissed but was able to buy another 146 from IronMike. Thank you Mike. It worked out great.

Anyway, I am forced to assume that the naphtha made the bakelite swell and the swollen bakelite made the quick take-apart rings swell. Thank so?

-steve

I think maybe anything that can be absorbed by the wood filler and cause that to swell, be it naphta or water? There are plenty of anecdotes about humidity and dampness causing it to swell too. Like old radios being stored in damp basements etc, etc.

mo65 · August 12, 2020, 02:38:21 PM

Nice work G! I've noticed the worst victims of plate swelling seems to be those big Mariner plates. 49s and 349s often have the busted rings.

MarkT · August 12, 2020, 03:34:36 PM

Bakelite, the worlds first synthetic plastic! Well, back in the early 1900's they didn't have graphite or carbon fiber to strengthen plastics so they commonly used wood!

Gfish · August 12, 2020, 03:50:46 PM

Thanks fellow fishos. Good info here. Wish I had the capacity to do experiments on what, and how much, causative agents lead to swelling, it might be fun. I have seen little flecks of brighter stuff in chipped bakelite, wood? Perhaps no more brushing grease on plate insides.

Mandelstam · August 12, 2020, 04:05:12 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Baekeland then began experimenting on strengthening wood by impregnating it with a synthetic resin, rather than coating it. By controlling the pressure and temperature applied to phenol and formaldehyde, Baekeland produced a hard moldable material that he named "Bakelite", after himself. It was the first synthetic thermosetting plastic produced, and Baekeland speculated on "the thousand and one ... articles" it could be used to make. Baekeland considered the possibilities of using a wide variety of filling materials, including cotton, powdered bronze, and slate dust, but was most successful with wood and asbestos fibers."

If some bakelite used asbestos which I presume doesn't swell as wood does that could explain why some bakelite products are more prone to swelling than others.

Brewcrafter · August 14, 2020, 11:53:47 PM

I had an exchange with a gentleman on the Vintage Penn social media suffering from badly swelled plates on a reel he was rebuilding and it got me to thinking ("a dangerous pastime, I know" for you Shrek fans out there). I'm sitting here in the Socal Inland Empire and it is a toasty 112 with the humidity hanging around 28-30%. I have never had to deal with swelled plates. In the posts above I think the general thought is that bakelike plates consist of some level of organic material like wood that is hydroscopic, and that if using solvents (Steve's naptha) that very well the resins are reacting with them. Soooo...(staring at my food dehydrator that I make jerky in...). What would happen if a swelled plate was slowly dehydrated over time? I know that the swelling that most folks experience is not an "overnight/this week/this month" process, so it would most likely be very prolonged and not worth the effort (I would rather make jerky personally). And I have to be realistic and think that for components originally manufactured many decades ago that even if my thought process works, you are going to end up with stresses and cracking, and overall loss of strength. But if somebody is restoring a "museum shelf queen" maybe worth it? Guessing if anybody would know the science it would be Steve or Jurelometer Dave.... - john

oc1 · August 15, 2020, 05:29:26 AM

Not me, but that's a really, really good idea John. Someone should play around with it and come up with some process.

Swollen bakelite is only an issue when it binds, warps or cracks the rings though, right? On a reel without rings does the swelling bakelite blow out at the screw holes or crack spontaneously? I've seen cracked plates but never though that it may be caused by swelling bakelite rather than just dropping it. Or, maybe, the swelling bakelite puts stress or strain in the sideplate so it breaks more easily if dropped? Or, maybe some frozen sideplate screws are caused by swelling and binding but are blamed on corrosion?

I know; lots of questions and no answers.
-steve

Swami805 · August 15, 2020, 11:15:09 AM

If you want to lose the bar across the top you could use threaded inserts like Newells do, the bar does add strength though.

Gfish · August 15, 2020, 07:55:12 PM

Threaded inserts? Hmmm. Sounds like a thing. The frame is pretty solid on this reel with the 3-screw stand and the 6-post frame, already. And obviously a single extera post won't get it all buttoned down.

Addendum: checked it out. Looks like it could work, if, I could countersink the screw heads on the inside rings and insert the nut on the outside rings/plate. Godda keep the inside rings smooth for line movement.