Better braided line lay on older reels

[JasonGotaProblem]

This seems like a general question, though for reference my interest currently centers around putting line on a Penn 8500SS.

I keep hearing that these reels (and in general many older reels) don't really love braid; that the line lay is not ideal; and they are prone to wind knots.

Yet i see older reels spooled with braid all the time, and the owners don't seem to be in the process of pulling out their hair in frustration. So what's the secret? How do i get braid to spool well on my SS?

Are certain varieties of braid better than others for these applications? I imagine a line with more body to it (less limp) would do better against wind knots, but I dont know how that would affect line lay.

Does the answer involve spool shims? If so where can i find more detailed info on how to optimize that aspect? My understanding is a thicker shim means the top wrap is further from the top of the spool, so it seems a much thinner shim would be called for when going from thick mono to thin braid. Is this correct?

God so many questions circling around in my brain.

[mo65]

   You're right...it does seem like a general question...but I have to be honest...in all my travels I still have not seen a solid answer to why so many say braid is trouble on older reels. In my personal experience, any reel, new or old, that wouldn't spool braid well also would not spool mono well either! It's always a case of improper spool/pickup alignment...like you mentioned about the spool shims. It's amazing, a few thousandths one way or the other can make a huge difference. I think what happens is a spool can be a bit out of alignment with mono and go unnoticed, that stuff will stretch tight as it goes on, align itself into smoother wraps. Then many years later someone tries to put braid on...and it don't stretch...and can get very sloppy easily.
   I've found that keeping tension on the line seriously helps braid spool on better. This makes fishing very light lures hard to fish on braid. Many times, I deal with that though, as it is not nearly as annoying as all that line twist trouble from the mono. I hope someone has some more useful advise for you.

[Ron Jones]

There are only to things I can say doe certain, and one happens regardless. Small diameter line and some conventionals don't work because the line slips between the spool and the side plate. This happens regardless of the material used. Also, spinners with soft rollers can get eaten up by braid. I use braid and floro on everything, to me the sensitivity is worth it. I have a Penn 60 with 80# braid on it and it works just fine. You lose the capacity advantage, but 85s have plenty of capacity for anything you would use them for today.
The Man

[JasonGotaProblem]

There are only to things I can say doe certain, and one happens regardless. Small diameter line and some conventionals don't work because the line slips between the spool and the side plate. This happens regardless of the material used. Also, spinners with soft rollers can get eaten up by braid. I use braid and floro on everything, to me the sensitivity is worth it. I have a Penn 60 with 80# braid on it and it works just fine. You lose the capacity advantage, but 85s have plenty of capacity for anything you would use them for today.
The Man

Ok so dumb question: the point of chasing better line lay is for better casting. Isnt that negated by using a heavier line? I mean from my experience the cast-distance-difference between 40 lb ssv2 and 50 lb ssv2 on the sake rod and reel is noteworthy. I imagine using an even heavier braid would be even more noteworthy.
Not really speaking from a super experienced position here, that's why I need to ask such dumb things.

[oc1]

Line lay on spinners is so mysterious.  How does a  0.2 mm difference in line diameter (20# braid versus 20# mono) make such a big difference in line lay on a spool that 25 mm high?  Can someone explain?
-steve

[philaroman]

you already did the best mod for braid line-lay: NO AUTO-BAIL
you mentioned 500yd/50#...  I know, when you first switch to braid,
it seems appealing to have "uninterrupted miles" from arbor to business end,
but then you find out how tedious it is to reverse the line or respool a large-capacity reel...  also, EXPENSIVE!!!
maybe, spool up w/ 80# as backing & experiment how thin you can go for the final 200+ yds.
(or, you can make your final "casting" line section exactly long enough to fill your 4000-size reel)

[Swami805]

I think the wind knots come from the line not being wound on with enough  tension casting and retrieving light lures, at least in my limited expierence surf fishing. I tried a lot of different braids and they all were prone to wind knots to varying degrees. As long as you have consistent tension seems to be ok but difficult to do with moving water

[JasonGotaProblem]

Line lay on spinners is so mysterious.  How does a  0.2 mm difference in line diameter (20# braid versus 20# mono) make such a big difference in line lay on a spool that 25 mm high?  Can someone explain?
-steve

My understanding is limited but I believe it has to do with the line nit getting close enough to the top of the spool. The end result is the wrap closest to the top on the next layer ends up down in that gap and it just compounds upon itself as more layers go down.

you already did the best mod for braid line-lay: NO AUTO-BAIL

Mandatory. If i want my bail to flip I'll flip it.

you mentioned 500yd/50#...  I know, when you first switch to braid,
it seems appealing to have "uninterrupted miles" from arbor to business end,
but then you find out how tedious it is to reverse the line or respool a large-capacity reel...  also, EXPENSIVE!!!
maybe, spool up w/ 80# as backing & experiment how thin you can go for the final 200+ yds.
(or, you can make your final "casting" line section exactly long enough to fill your 4000-size reel)

I can certainly see your point, and you're definitely not the first to say that to me. And I am definitely that guy. I dont need it to be uninterrupted I just want it to be mostly braid. The 8500SS is no drag monster. My understanding is you can still take down big fish with it but you gotta do it by tiring them out. So to me this is my open water rig. I want the line cap to let em run. I have my LT100 (which is not full braid spool) if I need more power. Heck my 4000 spheros has a much higher max drag.

My plan is likely 20ish yds 20 lb braid 300 yds regular power pro 50 lb and then 150 yds of super slick for casting. Im good for a 150 yd cast on my surf rig with the SSV. So maybe i should do more.

I think the wind knots come from the line not being wound on with enough  tension casting and retrieving light lures, at least in my limited expierence surf fishing. I tried a lot of different braids and they all were prone to wind knots to varying degrees. As long as you have consistent tension seems to be ok but difficult to do with moving water

in general when I cast out I've learned to take a high grip and hold tension on the line until I reel in all the slack. Most the time at least. I've noticed it makes a difference.

So in talking about this one of my good friends mentioned that he's been fishing his 550SS with braid next to me for years and I've never seen him with a wind knot. And he's right. Maybe I'm making something out of nothing. I'm just trying to go for excellence with this one.

[CapeFish]

Dobypu not find that braid damages and grooves the line roller on older reels?

[mo65]

Line lay on spinners is so mysterious.  How does a  0.2 mm difference in line diameter (20# braid versus 20# mono) make such a big difference in line lay on a spool that 25 mm high?  Can someone explain?

   It's not so much the diameter difference...it's more about the material difference. That braid just doesn't draw itself smoothly onto the spool as mono. Even the least little bit of stretch in that mono causes the wraps to "suck" right onto the spool. Braid just won't do that...a slack wrap or two just lays there exactly as it was laid on...and next thing you know...well you know! And like I said earlier, if that spool alignment is one hair out from perfect, it won't effect mono line lay a bit, but with braid it will stack higher on one end or the other horribly.

Do you not find that braid damages and grooves the line roller on older reels?

Sure...it will trash a soft line roller...old or new...but any good hard line roller will be just fine.

[Ron Jones]

There are only to things I can say doe certain, and one happens regardless. Small diameter line and some conventionals don't work because the line slips between the spool and the side plate. This happens regardless of the material used. Also, spinners with soft rollers can get eaten up by braid. I use braid and floro on everything, to me the sensitivity is worth it. I have a Penn 60 with 80# braid on it and it works just fine. You lose the capacity advantage, but 85s have plenty of capacity for anything you would use them for today.
The Man

Ok so dumb question: the point of chasing better line lay is for better casting. Isnt that negated by using a heavier line? I mean from my experience the cast-distance-difference between 40 lb ssv2 and 50 lb ssv2 on the sake rod and reel is noteworthy. I imagine using an even heavier braid would be even more noteworthy.
Not really speaking from a super experienced position here, that's why I need to ask such dumb things.

My experience is that similar diameter mono and braid cast about the same, and for me the sensitivity of braid is its number one selling point. I hate mono, braid and floro just let you know what's going on with so much higher fidelity. One of these days I'll spool an old Penn with straight floro and I'm certain I'll be ecstatic, I just have them all filled with braid right now.
The Man

[thorhammer]

ive fished braid on all my SS reels for more than 15 years; surf or boat, no issues with stainless rollers. keep the bush serviced so actually rolls.

[Benni3]

I use braid and mono,,,,, they both have good points and bad,,,, You got to put a couple of feet of mono on the spool before braid,,,to stop the braid from slipping and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line,,,,, some rods say there braid friendly,,,,,but there not,,,,,and will dig into the eyes,,,,,,,,,,,,

[JasonGotaProblem]

...and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line...

Never heard that before. Can you elaborate further or point me in the direction of where to read more on the topic?

[Benni3]

...and the distance form the reel to the first eye makes a difference in casting and lay line...

Never heard that before. Can you elaborate further or point me in the direction of where to read more on the topic?

I don't know to much about it,,,,,, a rod builder explained it to me,,,,,, the size of your reel spool and eye,,,the distance between ^v+Ve+Me+Mf= distance,,,,, it's more like rocket science to me but a good rod builder could explain it,,,,that's why penn recommends this rod for this reel,,,,,,,,