Coatings on guides? (Spinning rod)

[JasonGotaProblem]

I picked up a used shimano teramar rod (7'6" 10-20# extra fast) for cheaper than I care to disclose, because even though the blank is in great shape the guides looked like crap; it looked like it's been sitting for a while and they were a bit corroded, with what looked like caked on salt and a tiny bit of rust. I figured even if I have to buy a new Fuji kit and replace them all, its still a good price.

But i figured what the heck I'll throw some elbow grease at it first to see if it's even necessary. So I took a soapy spong and then some chrome polish to them, and now they look almost brand new minus one slightly bent one.

But i started to wonder: if part of what makes the difference between a good guide and a cheap one is the nature of the surface re: line friction, was there some coating on there that I just removed? And should i think about putting something down to prevent future corrosion? I strongly considered carnauba wax. I also thought about a clear coat on the structural part (not the ring, I don't know the terminology). I just got some 'protectaclear' for my polished penn reels. Maybe that? Though I haven't tried it yet so i have no idea how good it works.

Thoughts?

[Cuttyhunker]

I've brought back a few nasty guides, mostly with 4/0 steel wool re-habing some older neglected rods for resale, like anything you get what you pay for (usually).  If they are the original guides I'd expect better ones.
I find the waxing idea interesting, the stuff sure makes the hood of my car slippery.  I wonder how (which I would expect they do) long cast guys prep the rods and guides for the competitions?

[JasonGotaProblem]

  I wonder how (which I would expect they do) long cast guys prep the rods and guides for the competitions?

You have successfully distilled my 3 paragraph post into one succinct question. Well done sir.

[steelfish]

But i figured what the heck I'll throw some elbow grease at it first to see if it's even necessary. So I took a soapy spong and then some chrome polish to them, and now they look almost brand new minus one slightly bent one.
Thoughts?

I am not an expert by any means on rod building but I like it a lot and try to learn as much as I can, but in my short time restoring rods and building them my opinion is that is you polished the ring of a ss guide (no ceramic) you better be sure that ended up smooth as glass or it will cut your line,  not the 1st or the 3rd cast, but on a nice fish when the line is really tense, a broken or chipped ceramic rings cannot be fixed it must have changed.
now if you just cleaned the frame SS material or simple steel with a chrome polish or any other scratching method then that guides is going to be more prone to be corroded by SW so, pay attention on them EVERY time to finish your fishing day, carnauba wax is great as well as to damp a rag with some light oil and pass it over those guides or over all the guides of your rods on the 2nd or 3rd day after a fishing day, the oil will make them shine and protecte them for the next use on saltwater.

maybe is now kind of easy for me, but when it doub if a guide is in good shape is better to put a new one  than losing the fish of your dreams

put pics of your terramar rods, those are nice rods, I have a musky 7.6H rod with cheap guides that were too noisy and thin, so I took them out and installed better quality guides and restored the whole rod in the same time, it looks like a brand new rod, you can do the same to your rod.

check it out
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22222.msg242325#msg242325

[JasonGotaProblem]

Before and after images of one of the guides below. (Same guide) that's a reflection of my christmas lights on the insert in the after picture.

I just used chrome polish, because I know that's pretty gentle.

[steelfish]

look pretty good, I will fish it as is.

ceramic rings are really hard to scratch, that marks can be the paint of the fishing line or another objets and I think they never corrode per se, metal frame around the ring can be corroded of course.

[Midway Tommy]

While each has his/her own guide manufacturer preference Shimano Teramar Inshore rods used FUJI guides. You're not going to get much better quality in guides than FUJI. There is nothing inferior about their SS frames no matter which finish they are. Type of ring is personal preference (weight, hardness, etc.) but they're all good. Many feel SIC rings with Titanium frames are the best but there is nothing wrong with or inferior about SS frames. 

[JasonGotaProblem]

While each has his/her own guide manufacturer preference Shimano Teramar Inshore rods used FUJI guides. You're not going to get much better quality in guides than FUJI. There is nothing inferior about their SS frames no matter which finish they are. Type of ring is personal preference (weight, hardness, etc.) but they're all good. Many feel SIC rings with Titanium frames are the best but there is nothing wrong with or inferior about SS frames. 

To be clear I love Fuji guides, and that's one of the things that made the teramar appealing. But as it arrived to me they didn't appear to be in good shape, and that's part of how I got the great price. If I were to replace them, it would be with newer fuji guides.

Gonna try to test it tomorrow if weather permits. See if I can finally hit that hundred yard mark on a cast from a non-surf rod.

[jurelometer]

Agree with Tommy and the others. 

I  check  inserts for cracks, and look for corrosion on any welds that attach the ring to the guides.  It looks  like your frames are weld free, so you should be good to go.  The ceramic inserts won't corrode, and are not coated with anything, just polished at the factory.   I  would just clean the rust a bit with corrosion-X and go fishing.  If there is some hidden damage in the blank, it would really suck to have it break on your first cast after rewrapping it.

In terms of what makes one ceramic guide better than another:  We talked a bunch about guides in one of the rod building threads. 

Ceramic inserts, like the ones in your photos often crack from impact, but don't really wear out.  There is the occasional story of a grooved ceramic insert from braided line, but I have yet to see one, or even a photo.

Generally speaking, higher end inserts are made from harder materials that are generally more prone to impact damage, but can be more highly polished, which leads to a decrease in friction. But the friction from line rubbing on ceramic during the cast is already so low that casting distance will not be noticeably affected.  There is also the claim that smoother inserts will not cause heat buildup in the ceramics, which will damage the line when fighting a large fish under load.  My personal opinion is that this is marketing nonsense.

Titanium frames are lighter and more corrosion resistant than 316 stainless.  316 is more corrosion resistant  than 304.  Thinner rings and inserts are lighter, but are more prone to insert impact damage, and differences in modern guide weights  are usually pretty inconsequential as long as you pick the right frame style for the blank.  Especially as the rod gets larger.

What might make a noticeable performance difference is ring diameter, height, placement and maybe angle.   But this means rewrapping with new style guides at new locations, which is a pain in the a** , especially if you want  a professional looking result.   

-J

[Bryan Young]

Those look fine. 

I like the teramar thread as it's supposed to be graphite based for greater line to handle sensitivity.

[Jeri]

Adding a little to this thread, that may answer some of the questions raised.

Fuji stamp their name on all their guides, so be sure that the name is there against some claims of Fuji guides.

Originally, Fuji only used stainless steel in the frames, either polished or black coated. They are now changing away from those frames to ones that are coded CC and BC finished which is a plating process that is supposed to offer 7 times more corrosion resistance to the frames.

Generally, on stainless steel frames, the fact that some manufacturers use cheaper less corrosion resistant stainless, is often the cause for early 'rusting' and discolouration.

Ceramic inserts are extremely hard and durable and extremely difficult to damage, apart from external impact damage, when chipping or cracking is most likely. Some companies do plasma coat the ceramic guides suggesting that it improves them, but then skip the diamond grit polishing processes.

Don't know about various car waxes, but have for years been using simple low silicone furniture polish on all my rods, something like 'Pledge'. It does protect the whole rod from accumulations of salt water and grit, including guides and frames.

Distance surf casters generally tend to use higher grade ceramic lined guides that are lightest in profile, as the guide weight can often affect the performance of the blank. Our recent works with guide designs on surf rods has proven that even on identical blanks, lighter single leg guides 'find' performance over traditional heavier guides on the same blank. KR Concepts or hybrid KR are a typical example of 'finding' power in blanks.

[oc1]

Jeri, do you think that you are finding more power by decreasing the tip weight with lighter guides and improving balance?
-steve

[Swami805]

I've been using single foot guides on all my light  rods following some of Jeri's advice. There's a little less weight which helps some but I think most of the improvement comes from less dead spots in the blank from the 2 foot guides.

[Jeri]

Jeri, do you think that you are finding more power by decreasing the tip weight with lighter guides and improving balance?
-steve

'Finding', is perhaps the wrong word, more like releasing power that was already there, but dampened and restrained by twin leg guides and therefore inherently heavier. When we were building mostly surf rods for nylon lines and multipliers (conventionals), we found that by taking the last 3 guides down to size 10 from 12, did increase feel and performance. Later when our fishery changed pretty much to fixed spool (spinners) and braid, that initial success was with full sets of Fuji Low Riders, then we experimented with full KR schemes with high single leg guides, and 'found' heaps of performance from exactly the same blanks, but that those set ups were a little too fragile for our fishery, so we developed a hybrid scheme with 3 Low Riders then a string (5-7) low single leg guides, and didn't lose too much performance.. The restraining effect of the 3 Low Riders was limited, as they are placed on a section of the blank that doesn't flex so much.

One aspect that is often overlooked is the 'recover' speed of the blank in the tip area after the cast is released, quick recovery is basically down to having less weight in the area, so it allows the line to shoot out of the tip section in a straight path, not oscillating.

A lot of what we have been doing has been clearly associated with the very high line speeds we get when surf casting - very much more than say a spinning situation where distances aren't so extreme. Line speeds near 100 mph, or 40 meters per second, this has a lot of influence on either how quickly things go wrong, how quickly choking of the flow can occur or some of the other effects that we actually strive to have happening. Again the word 'choking' is not in reference to US terminology normally associated with a 'choke guide', but more with the actual flow of the lines.

One other benefit that we found from our hybrid scheme, over the full KR, was that there seems to be some sort of flex happening actually at the 'choke guide' with KL-H guides, in that we needed to use a size 25 to get harmonics, but only a size 20 Low Rider to achieve the same performance. Frame structure is not everything in these cases, a truly rigid guide frame in some places offers more performance.

[Cuttyhunker]

Here's a link to the FUJI KR set up with slow motion and continuing explanations of how the line acts flowing through the guides.