which slow pitch jigging rod: UC Zeus, UC Challeger Xtreme or Blackhole CapeCod

[boon]

That is also why a difference of an ounce or two in blank weight is hard to notice.

This is a long winded way of saying that the functional/technical demands on these type of jigging blanks is not very high, so it seems tougher to me to justify paying a premium.

I don't even know if we're talking about the same kind of jigging at this point   I know techniques and styles vary hugely around the world... so I suspect we may be talking about two different things.

EDIT: Watch this video: - three very similar rods, and yet each imparts noticeably different action on the fall, due to variations in how the blank responds. Each of these rods is better suited to a different jigging action and style of jig.

Double edit: I know this is just in a pool so the effect will be exaggerated due to minimal effects of water depth. But that's also why it's vital to use the lightest line you can get away with. At 200ft it matters a lot.

[boon]

Aha, it is another of these threads, where someone asks about slow-pitch and J says "it's all humbug, use whatever rod you want" and I come along and say "are you mad, use the correct tool for the job, blah blah blah"

Which I guess just goes to illustrate that everyone has their own opinion about "ideal".... or even "worthwhile".

[steelfish]

None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.

can you explain me or point me where to find the main difference on those two techniques or what makes a SP rod?
I know I can google it but sometimes is easier to understand when someone explain it with simple normal words.


Im not totally set on getting a purist slowpitch blank this time, heck Im only looking for a blank to replace my Trevala rod which is a knife jigging rod (fast pitch?) but I might get one slow pitch sooner or later just to try it, my normal fishing grounds are not that deep so, North Sea of Cortez I really dont know how much much depth you need to really make those slowpitch lures to shine or if the SP technique can be use it as the also "new" light and UL micro jigging technique.
I have seen videos of UL micro jigging (I dont know if those videos are for light Slowpitch rods or fast pitch rods) and its really appealing too, specially when my average size fish in my local zones are around 2#- 6# with the good ones been around 10-15# but you can find a 40# if you happen to find an adult gulf grouper, two and 4hrs south the fisheries get a lot better in size.

I dont recall many threads on at.com talking about slowpitch rods so, I dont know how many times our guy "J" had said to use whattever glass rod and your set hahaha, but feel free to add all the input on the topic in this thread as you want.

Im also trying to use lighter rods than my normal Glass heavy and thick wall rods that we normally use (froma decades) in Baja, I have already a custom composite 130# trolling rod and 100# livebait rod,  those are my Heavy rods and currently building a 7.6ft swimbait rod for casting lures at the rocky shores of the islands, still need a short jigging rod, a spinning popping rod and a 40# livebait/casting rod to replace my factory rods

[steelfish]

Unless you mean the Cape Cod Special Slow Pitch, no, they are all fast jig rods.

My PE1-2 is a Jig Star Tai Kabura.

thanks that seems like a really cool rod.

another fellow in Bd.com said that Zeus 1 blank can act as slowpitch rod just using heavier SP lures (because they are underated so, you have to use the lures recommended for 300gr SP blanks ) to get the proper movements of the lures, but I find the zeus1 with 15# capable drag still on the low side to stop YT and groupers on shallow/medium deep water looking for structure, so, maybe because of my regular zone for fishing SP rods are not what I need, normally I cannot use low drag because to fish will rock me in 3 seconds.

[Rivverrat]

....They pretty much point the rod at the fish and fight it with just the reel. That old Roddy had way more back than the high-end slow pitch rods!

  Mark is correct. Slow pitch originally came about in Asia. It was a technique used in over fished waters. Rod was entirely used to impart action to the jig. Again, I'm no jig fisherman. I'm going to be working to change this. Simply because I believe most any fish can be caught with some sort or fashion of a jig... Jeff

[steelfish]

None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.


EDIT: For reference, my PE1-2 slowpitch rod has a butt diameter of 0.39" and takes a size 4 tip.
The other giveaway is the weight. CXJ602 blank is 6.2oz - that's more than a completely built slow-jig rod.

Amigo Boon, reading here and there found out that UC is actually making a blank for UL micro jigging and some guys are using it as Slow pitch rods is UC 60H   double helix, etc, etc


SKU:       Action:    Butt:   Length:   Line Weight:   Lure Weight:   Tip:   Blank Weight:
UC60H   FAST    0.35       6'0"    8-25              1/4 - 1      5.5       2.14   

[boon]

None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.

can you explain me or point me where to find the main difference on those two techniques or what makes a SP rod?
I know I can google it but sometimes is easier to understand when someone explain it with simple normal words.

Fast pitch, mechanical jigging, maybe even butterfly jigging.... the typical technique for this is to do one pitch (turn of the handle) for each jerk (lift of the rod). Rod raised, reel handle at the top, rod tip to the water, reel handle at the bottom. But the difference is the cadence; with fast pitch/MJ there isn't really a pause or much of a falling phase, unless you, say deliberately pause after 4 or 5 lifts - the jig is more or less darting upwards. The jigs used tend to be tail-weighted and relatively light compared to a SP jig for the same line rating. I often jig a 300g knife jig on my PE8 MJ setup, whereas that would be more like a PE4 SP setup. Fast pitch rods tend to be shorter (under 6' usually) and much stiffer, to deal with the load the jig imparts with the rapid lifting of the rod tip. Because of the speed you work the jig, this technique is more suitable for fast swimming predators... you can use this technique for slow bottom fish but you usually slow the action right down to a poor imitation of SP.

With slow pitch, you can still do the one-lift-one-turn thing, or you can mix it up with half/quarter/third/whatever. The rod is deliberately worked in a way that you allow the jig to fall, while following it down with the rod. Most of the action of a SP jig comes from the fall, whereas with MJ you almost always get hit on the lift.

Fast pitch/Mechanical Jigging:



Slow pitch:

[steelfish]

got it

thanks

[jurelometer]

Let's not make it personal, it just discourages folks from contributing. 

Thanks for the descriptions and videos, Boon.  Here in the USA, all vertical jigging rods  are often  tossed into the "slow pitch" category.

Regarding the Shimano video:  The host is comparing gradually lifting and lowering the rod vs suddenly stopping and dropping the rod tip while the jig is still ascending.  Not a very compelling case for why different rods are needed for short vs long pitch.  A sudden hard stop allows the jig to continue to ascend, giving the angler time to drop the tip and introduce slack, allowing the jig to drop unimpeded (which is critical for the action).  So far,  a broom stick would work just fine for either.  The missing part that could have proven the host's claims would be to show how the rod snap actually affected the movement of the jig, perhaps by causing a bit of acceleration before the stall. The jig is only affected by the pull it is getting from the line.  it has no idea how much the rod is bending.

My guess is that the rod snap does not provide a lot of magic. The loading and unloading smooth out the lift action at shallower depths compared to a broomstick, which could be beneficial. I could see this sort of spring action on a lift looking more like a baitfish taking off from a stop.

Regarding which blank, I think you might have missed my point:  This style of blank is one of the less challenging to get right, so I personally would find it hard to pay  a premium for this week's hot brand. 

In terms of repurposing a classic vs a special built jigging  blank:  The amount of rebound available is a function of load and rod power (resistance).  How light or lively the blank is will not affect the amount of energy stored/released.  A blank that feels more lively has a higher resonant frequency, which means that the tip oscillates faster when load is released suddenly. This is what is giving you the faster snap on a modern carbon fiber blank.  A stiffer blank would actually further increase the resonant frequency.  This means that vertical jigging rods (to varying degree) are actually designed to be less lively than they could have been, are are not taking full advantage of the carbon fiber beyond weight reduction.   The length of time that the rod is loading/unloading must have been important, unless they simply thought that a bendy rod was a gimmick that could sell.

Damping (the physics term for force countering oscillation) is also at play.  In this case, damping comes in the form of the frictional force along and across the line and the resistance from lifting the jig.  If you have ever towed a section of line behind a moving boat to untwist it, you know how strong these forces can get.  Throw a tight turn while pulling on the rod.  The forces are quite surprising.

With enough damping, the original unimpeded resonant frequency becomes irrelevant.  My belief is that the depth and current/drift window where the difference in rods has an effect on lure action is much smaller than people think it is.   The shallower and calmer the waters you fish, the better the chance that fine tuning a quiver of vertical jigging setups might have a benefit.  If there is not much benefit for how you fish, better off going with a more all-around rod that you can throw at boils too.

I end up being wrong (it happens ) if the window is actually bigger than I think it is, and sending a paycheck or two to Shimano turns out to be money well spent.

I think that we both agree that the thinner the braid the better for any kind of drop jigging action, including traditional drop and shake.   A thinner braid increases the operating window, whatever size it is. 

-J.

[the rockfish ninja]

None of the blanks you have linked are slow-pitch blanks. They are all fast-pitch rods at my estimation.

can you explain me or point me where to find the main difference on those two techniques or what makes a SP rod?

https://www.anglers-secrets.com/rods-and-reels/

This is the main article on SPJ rods from the foremost website on the subject, it's out of Japan where it originated and all the rods are from overseas, but it reveals what US mfgs are attempting to replicate, and what China produces right now.

As someone who's been at this technique almost exclusively for the last 3 seasons I can say what Boon explains is pretty accurate, reading up on it should confirm this, and the skeptics  ... ... that suggest things like morphing an old fiberglass rod into this technique probably haven't had much experience with slow pitch.

Yes you can jig with any rod, and you can use these innovative new jigs with any rod, how effective it might be is up for debate until somebody shows some results, but most people that attempt it will most likely invest in a legit SPJ rod, sooner than later.

As for the rods you mention, BlackHole is more of one than what UC will put out, I've never even heard of them doing SPJ and most US mfgs have a lot of catching up to do.

For the US market Shimano is ahead of the pack with roots in this game for years, other mfgs that make slow pitch rods that are available here and are time and field tested are:

Phenix
Accurate
Nomad
Daiwa
Temple Reef
Penn    ........yes Penn

As some say there is a lot of hype involved with this slow movement, and some of that is true, but much of it isn't, and getting first hand experience is the best tutor.

You don't have to spend the big bucks for overpriced models with titatium guides, Penn's rod is on sale at some places at $119.00, a meager price to get started, and Shimano Grappler, a much better unit is a reasonably priced option.

I would just steer away from mfgs that have little experience with it.

[steelfish]

thanks Boon and rockfishing ninja for your valuable input on the subjet of SPJ

part of this misunderstanding and questioning is my fault because my lack of knowleage on the SPJ technique and gear use it, as Jurometer said, we (people that dont know much on the topic) like to talk about jigging, knife jiggin, slowpitch, etc as if they were the same, NOW I know they are very different styles and require very different gear, its like having similar clubs in a gulf bag, "jigging rods" look similar but depending what you WANT to do with your lure you chose SPJ or Knife jigging with a light and thin rod or with a more robust rod.

also, when I was looking for UC or BH or Rainshadow or any other blank Mfgs for slowpitch or mechanical jigging the only reason was because Im only looking for a blank, actually before asking and making this thread I found out there are many SPJ rods on the market for a very reasonable price as goofish, Ecooda and few more, but Im on the "mode" of not buying more factory rods even at a good price and even when building one SPJ rod will cost me 2x the price of those economical brands.

with said, seems that a true SPJ blank is hard to get, so far only BH charter special 6.8 slowpitch but no blank is available from Penn, daiwa, accurate, etc and other available blanks are in the expensive side for me, now thats the reason I ended up with those 3 options in my opening post of a regular (no SPJ) fast jigging rod.

[Dominick]

I am the number one skeptic.  I believe that one needs a stiff rod with maybe a soft tip.  Those bendy rods take too much energy to play a fish.  You want to get the fish to the gaff and not have a problem controlling the fish at the side of the boat.  My opinion only.  Also I think Dave was saying the same thing in a whole bunch of words.    Dominick

[the rockfish ninja]

so far only BH charter special 6.8 slowpitch

The nail on the head, that is the exact conclusion I came to when I did the research on building my own. The total with SIC guides and an upgraded grip came to about $230 if I recall, they seem pretty straightforward to build with very few components, I just chickened out and picked up a factory Shimano & went fishing.

If I ever build up the courage (not really a rod builder ) I'd go with that model.

[boon]

Let's not make it personal, it just discourages folks from contributing. 

Thanks for the descriptions and videos, Boon.  Here in the USA, all vertical jigging rods  are often  tossed into the "slow pitch" category.

Regarding the Shimano video:  The host is comparing gradually lifting and lowering the rod vs suddenly stopping and dropping the rod tip while the jig is still ascending.  Not a very compelling case for why different rods are needed for short vs long pitch.  A sudden hard stop allows the jig to continue to ascend, giving the angler time to drop the tip and introduce slack, allowing the jig to drop unimpeded (which is critical for the action).  So far,  a broom stick would work just fine for either.  The missing part that could have proven the host's claims would be to show how the rod snap actually affected the movement of the jig, perhaps by causing a bit of acceleration before the stall. The jig is only affected by the pull it is getting from the line.  it has no idea how much the rod is bending.

My guess is that the rod snap does not provide a lot of magic. The loading and unloading smooth out the lift action at shallower depths compared to a broomstick, which could be beneficial. I could see this sort of spring action on a lift looking more like a baitfish taking off from a stop.

Regarding which blank, I think you might have missed my point:  This style of blank is one of the less challenging to get right, so I personally would find it hard to pay  a premium for this week's hot brand. 

In terms of repurposing a classic vs a special built jigging  blank:  The amount of rebound available is a function of load and rod power (resistance).  How light or lively the blank is will not affect the amount of energy stored/released.  A blank that feels more lively has a higher resonant frequency, which means that the tip oscillates faster when load is released suddenly. This is what is giving you the faster snap on a modern carbon fiber blank.  A stiffer blank would actually further increase the resonant frequency.  This means that vertical jigging rods (to varying degree) are actually designed to be less lively than they could have been, are are not taking full advantage of the carbon fiber beyond weight reduction.   The length of time that the rod is loading/unloading must have been important, unless they simply thought that a bendy rod was a gimmick that could sell.

Damping (the physics term for force countering oscillation) is also at play.  In this case, damping comes in the form of the frictional force along and across the line and the resistance from lifting the jig.  If you have ever towed a section of line behind a moving boat to untwist it, you know how strong these forces can get.  Throw a tight turn while pulling on the rod.  The forces are quite surprising.

With enough damping, the original unimpeded resonant frequency becomes irrelevant.  My belief is that the depth and current/drift window where the difference in rods has an effect on lure action is much smaller than people think it is.   The shallower and calmer the waters you fish, the better the chance that fine tuning a quiver of vertical jigging setups might have a benefit.  If there is not much benefit for how you fish, better off going with a more all-around rod that you can throw at boils too.

I end up being wrong (it happens ) if the window is actually bigger than I think it is, and sending a paycheck or two to Shimano turns out to be money well spent.

I think that we both agree that the thinner the braid the better for any kind of drop jigging action, including traditional drop and shake.   A thinner braid increases the operating window, whatever size it is. 

-J.

Can I just say that I love how we can disagree as gentlemen, and the discourse is fantastic and does genuinely cause me to think in more depth (no pun intended) about my fishing.

Next time we're heading out a bit deeper I'll take a SPJ setup with me and some big jigs and do some experimenting. For what it's worth, I have mechanical jigged in 750ft with an 18oz jig and I was definitely imparting an action to the jig... you do have to alter the way you jig though, with an exaggerated rod lift resulting in a generally slower action.

Dominick - these rods, techniques, jigs... were developed in a fishery that has been under huge pressure for many years. The absolute emphasis is on getting the bite, requiring extremely good presentation, with fish-fighting being a secondary consideration (although some of the more modern rods are capable of leaning on a fish pretty hard). I'd much rather be hooked up on a noodle than holding a broomstick at the rail and staring out to sea.

[boon]

its like having similar clubs in a gulf bag

This is my approach entirely. Could you play an entire round of golf with a 5 iron? Probably, but I'd rather do it with a bag of clubs.

Or maybe you're the kind of golfer who just enjoys smashing balls out on the driving range, so all you need is a gigantic driver. Maybe you're more of a pitch/putt kinda guy, so you're quite happy with two clubs.

At the same time... I play golf (poorly) with maybe 5 or 6 clubs that I enjoy using and can hit fairly consistently with - just like I'm not heading out to sea with 20 fishing rods. I have 2 SPJ sets - a light one and a heavy one. I'm not quite in the category of going "hmm the tide has picked up 25%, better change from a Power 3 to Power 4 rod". I'll just put on a heavier jig and hope I can stay vertical...........