4 piece Rod Geeks surf rod

[jurelometer]

I just thought of one more thing:  we did a few threads awhile back on the "reel seat down" style (reel much closer to the butt than the the traditional style).  Another benefit that perhaps I didn't appreciate enough at the time is that this effectively increases the distance from the reel to the first guide. You get another foot at least from the reel to the first guide for the coils to reduce in diameter on their own.

Regarding line slapping the blank during the cast: While this is not beneficial, I think that the from a physics perspective, the greatest guide related energy loss by far is the line coils whacking across the first couple guide frames and rings (force = mass * deceleration). The line skipping off the blank does not cause much deceleration, although it might contribute to the next guide getting whacked. 

In order of priority for potential energy loss from the line moving through the guides, coil collision with the guides should come first, line slap on the blank next, and friction on the guide surfaces (compressive force * coefficient of friction- a very small number) such a far distant third that it probably is inconsequential with any ceramic insert. The guide leg shape and overall geometry is probably what makes one modern guide substantially better than another.

To find the best configuration, actual field trials are needed, and this is why Jeri's findings are so valuable.  A theory is not enough.  Too many things happening at once.  It takes trials using the same setups with different guides and placements to find out for sure.

Regarding rod loading, the shorter and/or bendier the blank, the more the lower end of the blank is going to be involved in the cast. And there is also the fish fighting aspect.  So for non-surf rods, it still seems logical to me that the best choice may not be to tilt the guide optimization too far toward coil reduction.  But you never know for sure until you try...

With fly rods, you need a blank/guide layout that really loads the butt in order to cast for distance, especially with a fast sinking line - the blank is just too scrawny to store much energy near the tip.  And for less skilled casters, the easier the butt loads, the less precision it takes to form loops without shock waves.  So butt end loading has a big impact on casting performance. Decreasing the ring diameter on the bottom two guides is beneficial, but customer resistance has been an issue.  We were previously programmed to believe that large rings were better for shooting line with less friction

-J

[Jeri]

I think a point worth making here is that a lot of the guides that we have used for our various surf casting rods (for spinning reels), and deliberate spinning rods have all been of the newer LK - H,M or L variety. more specifically wrt the stripper guide, the frames on a Kl-H are much higher for any given size than some of the more traditional original big ring guides. And it is this very height which has its foundations in the original Omura thinking that allows for much smaller ring size guides to be effectively used.

Omura postulated that a much smaller guide ring, set in a tall frame could be more effective than exceptionally large ring size guides. And, during his trials he found that increasing the distance up the blank only benefitted the better flow of line than more conventional at that time; bearing in mind the relatively low tech nylons they were using and reels back in the 1960's.

Reel up or reel down siting only aids the spread of guides, it isn't a criteria. having built a lot of rods for surf casting and lighter casting situations with the reel up (more conventional), has not deterred placing the first (stripper) guide an appreciable distance from the reel seat, and still getting significantly improved casting distances.

As mentioned earlier, an ultra-light 5-20 gram rod we built on a 2 piece 7'-8" blank, has the reel seat in the conventional spinning position, but the stripper guide is well on the upper section some 30" from the reel seat, and the rod being designed for much lighter and smaller reels like a 30 size, casts a proverbial mile with a 1/2oz sinker. Stripper guide is a KL16H, very small, and does not suffer any line slap, ring crash with coils or any other negative traits, other than looks slightly at odds with convention.

[ReelFishingProblems]

This has been a great post with a wealth of experience and ideas. I'm definitely using this information and adjusting my guide placement.
Thank you everyone and my next post will have pictures and measurements for guide placements

Nick

[jurelometer]

Reel up or reel down siting only aids the spread of guides, it isn't a criteria. having built a lot of rods for surf casting and lighter casting situations with the reel up (more conventional), has not deterred placing the first (stripper) guide an appreciable distance from the reel seat, and still getting significantly improved casting distances.

So if I understand correctly, what you are claiming is that there is a specific optimal minimum offset from the spinning reel to the first guide (for a given reel and first guide ring size/geometry), and that shifting this combination up or down the blank a fairly significant distance does not significantly effect casting distance as long as the offset does not change much.

The obvious assumption to make based  on this claim is that a major controlling factor on spinning rod casting distance is how well you are allowing the coil size naturally reduce before reaching the first guide.

Seems kind of logical.

-J

[Jeri]

So if I understand correctly, what you are claiming is that there is a specific optimal minimum offset from the spinning reel to the first guide (for a given reel and first guide ring size/geometry), and that shifting this combination up or down the blank a fairly significant distance does not significantly effect casting distance as long as the offset does not change much.

The obvious assumption to make based  on this claim is that a major controlling factor on spinning rod casting distance is how well you are allowing the coil size naturally reduce before reaching the first guide.

Seems kind of logical.

-J

Logic or common sense are exceedingly rare commodities, and occasionally need highlighting. The coils coming off a spinning reel at speed, need time to dissipate some of the circular energy - before being pushed/guided/eased through a smaller opening.

Consider the converse, 60mm diameter spool, then a 20mm diameter guide just 6" away - then cast!!!!

[ReelFishingProblems]

Just put the top wrap on the tiger stripe. Haven't applied epoxy yet but I like how it turned out. I'm still learning how to intentionally get different distortion patterns.

[oldmanjoe]

Just put the top wrap on the tiger stripe. Haven't applied epoxy yet but I like how it turned out. I'm still learning how to intentionally get different distortion patterns.

Doc Ski is on face book and u tubes  .     Has done tons of experiments of min ululations strings patterns and some talk of using 60 pound mono on top to get 3 D effects .    Worth look into .....

[ReelFishingProblems]

I will definitely look into Doc Ski. The only thing I don't like about doing tiger stripe wraps is the top layer makes me feel like I'm losing my vision trying to keep track of line order, make sure there are no skips, and even the spacing.

[Breadfan]

I will definitely look into Doc Ski. The only thing I don't like about doing tiger stripe wraps is the top layer makes me feel like I'm losing my vision trying to keep track of line order, make sure there are no skips, and even the spacing.

Double vision! That would surely mess with my head if I attempted that! Can't wait to see it with the epoxy!

[JasonGotaProblem]

My vision is better than 20/20 and I have that issue with tiger wraps. It's like my eyes start crossing.

Looking good though. Those are some unconventional color choices, and I look forward to seeing the finished product.

[DougK]

With fly rods.. We were previously programmed to believe that large rings were better for shooting line with less friction

-J

my 8wt graphite Sage has big rings all the way up, shoots pretty well.
Then I rebuilt a 5wt splitcane rod, and reused the agate stripping guide which has an inner diameter of about 4mm. I figured it looked good and the rod would be used for stream fishing where most casts are short anyway. Imagine my surprise to find it shot line as well as any of my big-ring graphite rods..

[ReelFishingProblems]

I don't know how to add videos now with the site update. I think I'll have to use my computer instead of my phone and save the videos as a specific file type.

I put down the epoxy on the over-wraps. There isn't as much distortion as I'd like, and there really is only one or two "islands." I used all ProWrap on the bottom, and I used VoodooRods thread as the sacrificial threads on the top. Overall I still like it, but it's more uniform than I would have liked.

[handi2]

My opinion is,-this is why most surf casters and fishermen use conventional reels,

[ReelFishingProblems]

Making more progress. I wrapped the ferrules in black thread to keep them less visible. Once the epoxy dries I will start testing the guide placement. Thank you everyone for the guide placement discussion. This thread is now a treasure for me.

Just a sneak peek on the decorative wrap and a clue on the recipient.

[thorhammer]

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